Safe Speed Forums

I agree with all the replies about the people who mostly tailgate a lot of the time are motorists who want to pass the L2 driver whos driving at a steady 55-60mph with nothing around him but for reasons only known to them wont pull back to L1,thus causing some cars approaching in L1 to O'take using two lanes,ie L2 then L3 then back to L1.

I use the motorway travelling to and from work and it P***es me off when I am in L1 at 70mph and approach the above mentioned in L2 and have to complete what should be a one lane overtake instead of all three and back again. If the motorway is empty I approach the rear of L2 hogger in L1 and just sit there letting him know I am there and hope he feels uncomfortable to the degree he moves across or speeds up. Then other times I will access there attitude and very carefully pass on the inside shaking my head on doing so,hoping that someone blows his doors off by flying past in L3 hoping he gets the message to move across.

Now i hear you all say I should set an example I do 99% of the time but there are sometimes that you have to try and educate people subtly and safely which I feel I do. I can come across this scenario lots of time in my own car and get adverse reactions those individuals who lane hog and tailgate know that they are doing it. Because when I am in a job car and come across same situation guess what L2 gets out of your way pretty sharpish and L3 tailgater brakes sharply and tries to get into a none existant gap in L2.

As for the cry I hear you say about more TOs on the road wellit would be nice to get rid of all the cameras and put more TOs back on proper traffic work using discretion etc,but unfortuneately we are going to get less and less over the next few years,as the government will have more and more Highways agency working the motorway network,then if they get there way PCSOs will get sworn in and hey presto it will be like America a three tier police service with very little experience or professionalism,there rant over.
Stephen

Isn't it illegal for them to be in lane 2 when lane 1 is free?
Pull them over! They are a rather large cause of annoyance.

Or is it police policy to ignore all bad driving on the motorway (including someone overtaking a marked police vehicle and swerving in front of it causing it to hit the brakes)? grrr

I keep thinking about making some kind of electronic sign/s to display messages to other road users, in this case I could have "USE > LANE > 1!". The trouble is I would want to follow this with something like "YOU > USELESS > PRICK" and that might get me in trouble.

And back to the subject of tailgating, the sign could say "BACK > OFF" or "TOO > CLOSE" or if I'm in lane 3 of a motorway and a Low-Flying-Suit comes up behind me "OK > OK > I > SEE > YOU"

_________________
Andrew.

I agree with nearly everything you have written Stephen.
I encountered several of each type today on the M6 on YOUR patch!
If I cautiously pass a middle lane hogger on the inside, can I count on your support? I have adopted this approach when lane 3 has been very busy, and feel more effort should be made to stamp out middle lane hoggers through TV campaign, and use of "Driving without due consideration for other road users". Is that still on the statute book?

As to vehicles appearing from nowhere, I had two instances today - the first M6 northbound near Forton Services - not quite out of nowhere, but close!
An electric blue car - new Ford Focus I think, came up behind me as I passed a car in Lane 2. I was doing close to 80 mph on the speedo, when suddenly the car which had appeared in my mirror as I initiated my manouver, appeared large in my mirror, flashing his headlights, which could be barely seen, he was so close!!
I chose to pull over only when it was safe, and he sped off at speed, dissapearing into the distance within a minute or so.
His index was H 200 so he seems to have a ponchant for attention - I hope he gets it REAL soon before he has a tangle with an innocent motorist.
The second was nearly home - approaching the on ramp of the A590 onto the A591. Nobody behind me, so I pulled over and flashed my lights to allow a VW camper van loaded with bikes off the slip, onto the carriageway.
As I QUICKLY drew level, a blue Audi A4 estate appeared in my mirror, just a few feet back.
He had to have crossed the hatched lines which divide the on-ramp from the A590 to get into that position, and the VW with my encouragment had crossed at the earliest point!
Needless to say as soon as I pulled over, he dissapeared just as quickly past the Prizet junction, even though I was doing 70 mph.
Turned into Kendal, index P? 54 XCL. Hope to see him in the Gazette before long, before he forces somebody into becoming a bonnet mascot!
In each case, tailgating seemed just one aspect of their style of driving which would concern me.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

One type of tailgater has been missed out in this thread. The driver who has simply gotten fed up of every time they follow at a safe distance, some prick pulls into it. Or when in a queue in L3 waiting to overtake a pair of speed-limited lorries, some pick performs a dangerous undertake, then pulls into it.

The logic is appealing: I am going to end up too close to a vehicle in front anyway once someone pulls in, so I may as well drive too close to this vehicle as it's the same level of safety only I get out of this situation (ie. being on the motorway or waiting to overtake the lorries) a lot quicker then if I let all this lot pull in front.

I try to take a different approach with people undertaking in these circumstances, and defend my position in the queue by gradually closing the gap such that my front bumper is level with their rear, I find this technique maximises stopping distance (which would become even shorter if I let them in) and keeps my place in the queue. It's about the best I can come up with that doesn't involve a shotgun.

Under normal circumstances I'll move from L3 to L2 once I've completed my overtake and there will be sufficient space for the car I'm overtaking to have a safe stopping distance, but sometimes this isn't fast enough for some people, so I get undertaken anyways, so mirrors are always needed.

of course you could argue that if someone has enough space to drive past you on the left then you had enough space to be in that lane.

what''s your point? IF someone can drive past that queue then there is space for that queue to be in L2 rather than L3, no?

And your chances of actually getting into L3 if you wait until you reach the two HGVs?

Pretty much non-existant. This situation is not analogous to zip-merging at a lane closure IMO.

I very rarely experience the first problem you describe. On the rare occasions I do, I simply ease off for a few seconds to re-establish the gap I'm happy with. I drive M25 J16-J11 every a day (each direction) and it may happen once or twice a week. No big deal.

The second scenario can be more difficult to deal with. In my view, the right thing to do, as johnsher says, is to move over to L2 (or L1 if free) anyway and move back out to overtake at the appropriate time. The result of that, sometimes, is that one ends up undertaking the traffic in L3 (as permitted by HC), even if doing no more than maintaining a constant speed. If a suitable gap appears in L3, one can then pull back out and overtake. Sometimes (because gaps are insufficient in L3) it turns out that one would have got past the lorries more quickly by staying in L3, but my view is that the priority is to use the road space efficiently. Sometimes one loses a few places in the 'queue', sometimes not. Que sera sera.

This may make me one of the pricks you complain of but, to my mind, this is a perfectly acceptable manoeuvre as long as the undertaking and/or the move back into L3 is not done aggressively.

so it seems that your problem is still poor lane discipline rather than undertaking.

Actually I think it is exactly analogous. If it is not analogous, just how long should the 'queue' in L3 be allowed to develop before it becomes acceptable for cars to use L2 and then 'merge' further up?

Well in my experience, the queue doesn't get to be that long, since most drivers aren't looking that far ahead*, so I'd guestimate about 12 car lengths is the maximum length you'll get anyway.

The problem usually comes about when one person decides that they only want to go about 2mph faster than the lorries and holds up the whole queue, patience fails, everyone bunches up, no-one is going to entertain someone pulling in front of them, so gaps close up rapidly.

I encounter this situation 2 or 3 times a day in the course of doing my job



* I remember one guy who decided to undertake such a queue in L1 at high speed, he got as far as undertaking the escort vehicle, before slamming on the anchors to avoid hitting the lorry that was carrying one of those enormous 2-lane-wide bright yellow dumper trucks whose axles sit on the low loader, with 2' wide wheels overhanging, and covered in flashing orange lights. He then proceded to barge his way in front of the escort vehicle, which then caused everyone overtaking to bunch up even tighter as no-one wanted to see this guy have any gain from such a stupid manouvre.

Hmm. You haven't really answered the question. 12 car lengths is about 2 maybe 3 cars, assuming reasonable separation. Possibly not enough to constitute a 'queue'.



Agreed. It's the dawdling (or failure to return to L2 when past the lorries) that allows the situation and the frustration to develop. However, closing up the gaps to prevent someone jumping the queue is still the wrong (if understandable) response.

The situation described by Lum is one I sometimes get stuck in. Even in lane-3 overtaking queues I like to keep decent headway. This may give the impression that I’m dithering.

A truck in lane 2 is overtaking a truck in lane 1. The trucks are travelling at about 60. A car travelling at 65 in lane 3 is overtaking the trucks. There are three other cars in lane 3 waiting to overtake the trucks. They are following each other very closely to prevent anyone pushing in from lane 2. This is a lane-3 overtaking queue.

So I join the end of the queue, and ten seconds later someone starts tailgating me aggressively as if this lane-3 queue thing is my fault. The tailgater (a.k.a. Numpty) is in lane 3 waiting to overtake. But he’s not overtaking. Our positions are exactly the same, except I’m not leaning aggressively on the car in front’s bumper. If I should be in lane 2, so should he. Neither of us is going anywhere until the car leading the queue has completed its overtake and moved back to lane 2.

About half the time, there are cars in lane 2. They may even be moving slightly faster than the cars in lane 1. If the driver at the front of the lane-2 queue looks like he might like to move into lane 3 for the overtake, I’ll ease off and leave extra space to make it clear I’d like to let him out. If he takes the chance, this lets Numpty see that it is possible to react considerately to other drivers.

If there are no cars in lane 2, I’ll often just give way to Numpty and wait in lane 2 or lane 1 until I can see that I’ll be able to complete the overtake without getting stuck behind someone who’s still waiting to overtake. This can take a few minutes.

Later on, if the road clears, I’ll usually pass Numpty. If he’s in lane 1 – a miracle - I’ll pass in lane 3 and say “thanks” with the indicators. Often, though, I’ll pass Numpty in lane 1, because he’s still in lane 3. Oh well.

the L3Q ( ) problem is something you can often see coming a long way off.... you can see the people in L2 moving out to L3 and eventually L3 reaches critical density and usually ends up going slower than L2.

my solution to this is to stay in L2 and ease off, given that in L3 i'd likely have to do that anyway. i usually ease off to match the pace of L3 but i refuse to brake in sympathy with them!
end result is making some progress on the queue.

7 times out of 10 the truck or slowpoke in L2 has completed the overtake by the time i get there so i'm able to carry on leaving a clump of traffic wondering why they're in L3.
the worst that can happen is that they don't pull in and i have to sit back and wait.

since it rarely takes longer than a minute for the problem to clear and i'm usually just on my way to work.... why hurry!

This thread highlights the mindgames motorists find themselves playing with one another in order to make progress down our thronging motorways.
When to move out to pass a slower vehicle
Is there a faster vehicle coming up behind
What to do if theres a queue of vehicles in the overtaking lane
How to handle being tailgated
How to prevent someone undertaking
Etc etc

On the M54, a two lane motorway, one is often confronted with the ridiculous sight of multiple vehicles in L2 (sometimes upwards of 20 odd) all passing one vehicle in L1 in single file. Nobody wants to give an inch, everyone's tailgating the car ahead. Every little anal driver is afraid that if they move into L1 where they should be, (particularly if they are way, way back in the line and can't even see the vehicle they are trying to pass) nobody will let them back in again and they'll lose their place in the queue - a typically British mentality On this later point I've personally found that there are enough considerate drivers out there who will let you out into L2/3 although you may have to wait for a few seconds for one to come along.
Its all utterly pathetic, behaving like this we deserve all the queues and phantom traffic jams that result from this indiscipline. And make no bones about it, the vast majority of drivers are just as bad as the guy in the car ahead or the tailgater behind. If only everyone would just drive properly, use the darned lanes as they are supposed to instead of trying to outguess or tread on the gonads of everyone else we'd all get along a lot more smoothly.

Rant flippin' over.

This argument really winds me up "oh, it only takes a minute, why the rush", usually coming from people who rarely use the motorways except for their summer holidays (with their caravan) and are fortunate enough to live near to their current employer.

I drive a minimum of 4 hours a day, sometimes as much as 12, an 8 hour commute to a customer site is not uncommon. Most of the reps in their BMWs will likely have similar situations, and each of these "oh it's only a minute" incidents add up. On a normal 4 hour round trip, giving into this argument can quickly make it a 5 hour round trip. The job I'm going to will take no less time to complete, so that's simply an extra unpaid hour tacked onto the end of my working day, less time to get things done and resulting in you being more tired the next day and completely and utterly fucked by friday (which is in itself more dangerous)

Perhaps one way to reduce tailgating would be to make it mandatory for jobs with significant driving content to be hourly paid rather than salaried? I'd be perfectly happy to sit in a queue then. It'd stop all my overtaking on the SC bit A41 between Aylesbury and M40 J9 too! Hello Mr. Combine Harvester, thank you for the free tenner you're earning me.

I might be making it up but I think I've noticed people backing off more since fitting an ABD sign to my car. I think they recognise the camera sign and think I'm a bad guy. Hopefully they eventually get close enough to read it, at traffic lights or whatever.

And the Baby On Board thread made be think, if those signs are over-used and don't stop people getting too close, how about one of these instead:




(no I'm not really suggesting you should display one of them, unless of course you're actually carrying radioactive material...)

Ok, it's not legal to overtake on the left on a 2+ lane road. However it is if it's a one-way street. And one-way streets usually in toms and have more hazards than your average dual-caradgeway. Asuming I got that right, isn't that complete madness? Is there really any danger to overtaking on the left? It's the norm in Australia on 2 lane roads, drive on the right and overtake on the left. I think both are illegal there too!

In the yanknited states of america it seems that on a 2+ lane road you can legally drive and overtake in whatever lane you chose. I'm not sure if I like that or not. I prefer the idea of everyone sticking to one side. Shame people can't cope with that idea.

If there's someone in the outside lane blocking my way I'll give them a chance to move over but if they don't I'll just go past them on the inside. Sure it's not legal but they aren't being legal either. Exceding the speed limit isn't legal either. They're blocking the way and causing road rage, I'm improving traffic flow.

Sorry, that got away from tailgating a bit didnt' it?

_________________
Andrew.

If you're thinking about work on the way to/from work then that should be counted as working. Plan the day, solve problems in your head and you should get paid for it!

_________________
Andrew.

I do that during the drive, not to mention the evening half the time. Since I have no sensible internet access during my day job, I often get home and ask questions about it on forums and suchlike.

The nature of my customers is such that I can never get a meaningful fault description over the phone, and if it's a new installation then I already know exactly what I'm going to do anyway, until they spring a suprise or a requirements change on me.

As for the radiation sign, I have a funny story about that, I was leaving a proper 2 second gap in L3 behind a white van that was displaying that particular plate. Mr rep behind me in some big black repmobile (not sure which, it was big black and German) obviously didn't like that so pulls into L1 to undertake the middle lane muppet I'm overtaking, and undertake me as well, pulls in front, and creeps up on the van to tailgate it.
I'm just about to start moving slowly into L2 when he must have noticed the sign or something and slams on the anchors. I move into L2 a little quicker than originally planned as this guy seems like he wants to come to a standstill, undertake as do a couple of other people who couldn't be arsed stopping (middle lane moron has moved into L1 by this point) and resume my position behind the radioactive van as we overtake the next middle lane moron.