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SafeSpeed
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 00:01 
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JJ wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
Rewolf wrote:
However if much of the SI improvement is down to car design changes...


I have very strong doubts that the recent reductions in the numbers of serious injuries relate to road safety at all. See:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/serious.html

I have been resisting this for a long time but you have it coming: BOLLOCKS! :roll:


Oh EXCELLENT! Reasoned argument.

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Paul Smith
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SafeSpeed
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 00:14 
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JJ wrote:
We have done a comparison between the following:
1. Core Safety Camera locations
2. Control locations (similar size and accident history but just failed acceptance)
3. Whole of Cumbria network

Reductions in accidents year on year for 1, 2, 3 are:
1. -70%
2. -12%
3. -12%


That's very sloppy!

"year on year for 1,2,3?" Where?

"accidents"? Or was that KSI? You need to use KSI to get the RTTM benefit illusion.

And these so called control sites. You once said there were 50. Then you said there were 11. We challenged you to provide full data and you ignored the request. And you expect us to trust your stats?

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SafeSpeed
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 00:23 
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JJ wrote:
Pete317 wrote:
So, officially, serious injuries can be under-reported by anything up to 2.76 times.

How, then, can you be so sure that your drop in serious injuries is real?

I agree that injuries and accidents could be under reported but the level of under reporting would have to increase year on year to produce this effect if the serious injuries were at or about the same level.


Of course if the Police / public relationship was getting steadily more and more damaged that's exactly what we'd expect.

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JJ
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:24 
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In Gear wrote:
But not a case of "our Ks are lower than yours - nanananananana." Is a case of being in command of the situation at all times . No one will ever reach the magic figure of NIL KSIs as accidents are usually result of bizarre set of circumstances leading by chance to a catastrophe. We try to educate towards observing, anticipating and planning to avoid - COAST principles :wink: Our advantage is that we are known and seen out and about. Think the continously decent set of figures speak for themselves in all police work areas in our patch - and all done properly and with a good dollop of tried, tested and true principles.


....'We try'.... is exactly what you do We originate from the North East, Neither us or our familys have ever heard of 'COAST' over there so I suggest that you try a bit harder on the educational side and get promoting it in your area.
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JJ
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:37 
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Pete317 wrote:
Has there been a change in the number of serious accidents and, if so, which way? If serious accidents have increased in number, then it could be down to factors such as safer cars, improved trauma care, under-reporting etc.
If they've decreased in number, then it could be that they're getting more serious.
Either way, it doesn't look like a strong case for speed cameras.

Or is there something else?

The LORD could appear at an accident scene or later in hospital and heal by way of a miracle but the accident would be recored as a serious injury. So improved care is not a valid argument for a reduction in serious casualties. It would however move fatal casualties into the serious category thereby increasing the serious casuaty figure.
Pete317 wrote:
Quote:
So again, you have not forwarded a real reason that detracts from the coincidence of safety camera operations and serious casualty rate falling at a faster rate.


You have me at a disadvantage - I do not have the relevant data, but you do (I assume.)

Cheers
Peter

You have a display of the data as received from the roadside attendee responsible for recording the level of injury.
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In Gear
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 13:34 
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JJ wrote:
In Gear wrote:
But not a case of "our Ks are lower than yours - nanananananana." Is a case of being in command of the situation at all times . No one will ever reach the magic figure of NIL KSIs as accidents are usually result of bizarre set of circumstances leading by chance to a catastrophe. We try to educate towards observing, anticipating and planning to avoid - COAST principles :wink: Our advantage is that we are known and seen out and about. Think the continously decent set of figures speak for themselves in all police work areas in our patch - and all done properly and with a good dollop of tried, tested and true principles.


....'We try'.... is exactly what you do We originate from the North East, Neither us or our familys have ever heard of 'COAST' over there so I suggest that you try a bit harder on the educational side and get promoting it in your area.


Perhaps your family have not come to our attention as worthy of a pull. Should you ever do so - can gaurantee a lot of acid in your particular lectures.

Our performance stats in all areas speak for us anyway. Accident rates still lower than UK average in a bad year - and we are still working on each area and seeking to improve as constant. But not a question of topping the hit parade of pop plod stations - it's about providing the public with a decent police service and maintaining respect , support and trust - and you ain't exactly helping! :wink:

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JJ
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 14:54 
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In Gear wrote:
Our performance stats in all areas speak for us anyway. Accident rates still lower than UK average in a bad year - and we are still working on each area and seeking to improve as constant. But not a question of topping the hit parade of pop plod stations - it's about providing the public with a decent police service and maintaining respect , support and trust - and you ain't exactly helping! :wink:


I think we in cumbria could say the same about you! I would suggest that you come over and visit us in your official capacity as a serving police officer before you jump to assumptions on the way we operate in Cumbria.
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SafeSpeed
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 14:56 
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JJ wrote:
In Gear wrote:
Our performance stats in all areas speak for us anyway. Accident rates still lower than UK average in a bad year - and we are still working on each area and seeking to improve as constant. But not a question of topping the hit parade of pop plod stations - it's about providing the public with a decent police service and maintaining respect , support and trust - and you ain't exactly helping! :wink:


I think we in cumbria could say the same about you! I would suggest that you come over and visit us in your official capacity as a serving police officer before you jump to assumptions on the way we operate in Cumbria.


So how do people feel about the police when they get a ticket from you for driving safely then?

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greengoblin
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 15:12 
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Are you now claiming to be doing a better job of road safety than our BiB ???? :shock:
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Cooperman
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 15:12 
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JJ wrote:
In Gear wrote:
Our performance stats in all areas speak for us anyway. Accident rates still lower than UK average in a bad year - and we are still working on each area and seeking to improve as constant. But not a question of topping the hit parade of pop plod stations - it's about providing the public with a decent police service and maintaining respect , support and trust - and you ain't exactly helping! :wink:


I think we in cumbria could say the same about you! I would suggest that you come over and visit us in your official capacity as a serving police officer before you jump to assumptions on the way we operate in Cumbria.


Arrogant little Pratnership people, aren't they.
Everyone knows how they operate with their silly cameras on the M6 catching people doing 79 in clear weather and light traffic. They think that's a contribution to road safety.
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In Gear
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 18:14 
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JJ wrote:
In Gear wrote:
Our performance stats in all areas speak for us anyway. Accident rates still lower than UK average in a bad year - and we are still working on each area and seeking to improve as constant. But not a question of topping the hit parade of pop plod stations - it's about providing the public with a decent police service and maintaining respect , support and trust - and you ain't exactly helping! :wink:


I think we in cumbria could say the same about you! I would suggest that you come over and visit us in your official capacity as a serving police officer before you jump to assumptions on the way we operate in Cumbria.



Hmm! Rather think statistics speak for themselves :roll: :P

But we have already had a delegation over there once - and we think we'll keep to our way- ta. You know the one which is 100% intelligence led :twisted: :twisted: :lol: :wink:

Course - we cannot be everywhere at once - but a camera van is also in the same situation. The difference is we are cruising around and actually visible in the high risk areas and policing the entire zone rather than one little bit - and where motivation and good intention are open to doubt. :wink: :wink: and question :wink: :wink: :wink:

Told ya - myth and legend that you aways with that much here. :twisted: But emphasis is safety led and has overall support and trust of our residents and stakeholders.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.
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Capri2.8i
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 18:32 
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In Gear wrote:
The difference is we are cruising around and actually visible in the high risk areas and policing the entire zone rather than one little bit.


Plus not forgetting you can pick up on a whole host of other offences, whereas JJ can sit happily in his van when all the drunk, drugged, stolen, unroadworthy, uninsured and unfit drivers and vehicles travel on their merry way.
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Ernest Marsh
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 23:24 
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Last May, two motorcycle riders had to be airlifted by air ambulance from Reston on the A591, while the talivan was a hundred yards or so away at Ings.

THAT's what Steve means when he calls them SAFETY cameras - nobody got hurt in front of the Talivan!

I bet that happens a lot in Durham too, IG?? :o

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Pete317
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 13:58 
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JJ wrote:
The LORD could appear at an accident scene or later in hospital and heal by way of a miracle but the accident would be recored as a serious injury. So improved care is not a valid argument for a reduction in serious casualties. It would however move fatal casualties into the serious category thereby increasing the serious casuaty figure.


OK, so I slipped slightly - so shoot me. But you choose to turn a tiny mistake made in the dead of night into an excuse to avoid answering the main question.

Quote:
So again, you have not forwarded a real reason that detracts from the coincidence of safety camera operations and serious casualty rate falling at a faster rate.


[missed last time around] And you have consistently failed to provide any sort of rational explanation for this apparent coincidence, without which it will remain just that - a coincidence.
Where is the mechanism?

Quote:
You have a display of the data as received from the roadside attendee responsible for recording the level of injury.


Where?
And where is the accident data, and the control data, etc etc etc?
Not to mention long-term data.

Cheers
Peter

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