Safe Speed Forums

Ideally it wourld work, but people are smart enough to think up solutions to that. Some commonly used examples:
* Regularly changing cloned plates
* Dirty plates
* No plates

And that’s before one considers IR techniques of making ANPR read different characters to what the eye will see.

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

There is a race going on. Technology creates ever more opportunities, some lawful, and some wrong. Car related crime is a good example. But this is the normal state of being, and it would be unwise to deny technology options to law enforcers while the opposition use whatever they can get. Cars are handy for hauling loot, and it would be nice for coppers to have data on all of them.

_________________
I stole this .sig

Nope. All the technology investment is on the Police side. Without that there would be no 'arms race'.

I don't deny the general march of technology, but that's market driven and desired by customers. When it's government using technology against citizens we should be extremely cautious to ensure that we understand the likely side effects before implementation. I see no sign of the necessary caution.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I don’t really think that ANPR is the ideal solution – in the end, we’ll get a drive-by RF system with non-transferrable, digitally signed identification chips on each car. But there are some simple policies that you could use :

1) Failure to read plate = alert and pull over 1 in 10.
2) Dirty plates = alert and pull over 1 in 10.
3) Regularly changing cloned plates = trace back to origin via records.

For (3), there would be an audit trace from where the car with the cloned plates joined the system that would trace back to the place where the switch occurred. There would also be a trace of the vehicle with the original plates leading up to the point, and so on. And that would lead back eventually to where the vehicle started from. Or you could run it forwards. There would be an audit trace from the crime scene to the place where the plates get switched. Then there would also be a trace of the vehicle with the new plates leading from that point, and so on. And that would lead back eventually to where the vehicle went. It’s all a very simple data processing problem.

_________________
I stole this .sig

The data processing is not a problem, getting the data is. This system assumes acceptable coverage with these cameras and that the locations of these cameras remain unknown (otherwise they would simply be avoided).
There is also the question of the required manpower for pulling these circumventers over but that would be too much like returning to effective policing!

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

In recent years, mobile phones have become de rigour for arranging drug deals, ram raids and so on. Another example of technology creating opportunity. The Internet and email are others, look at the internet-porn scandal about teachers which is doing the rounds at present, which is another ‘technology-enabled’ opportunity to commit crime. The list goes on, phishing and Nigerian email scams, all new opportunities that have arisen from new technology. And it won’t stop there, will it?

Criminals respond to security by using ‘better’ techniques or ‘new’ technology, such as camera detectors etc. Most would agree that a car is often better getaway technology than a pair or roller skates, and a fast car is even better still. And organisations respond to new techniques by refining security and collection information. And so it goes round, in a race.



That is true. But who decides when a technology is used against citizens, and when it is used for the good of citizens? Who could complain about keeping files on sex-offenders (to use a topical example)?

_________________
I stole this .sig

That's right. I’m not promoting this technology in any way, but if you start with a requirement such as “we need to know who was near the scene at the time”, then this is where it ends. Ultimately, such a system would be ubiquitous. It would not have “sites” as such, but practically omnipresent coverage, and you would “log in” to the system with a biometric ID to establish your identity before you could use the road system to go anywhere. That is where this leads. And if you don’t log in, you stay put.

_________________
I stole this .sig

If he told you that, he would have to kill you

_________________
Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.

Over my dead body. That's a vision of hell as far as I'm concerned. I am not a number...

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I know what you mean, but there's another view. It's more a vision of the past than a vision of hell. Progress has provided anonymity. People feel anonymous in their cars, or on the Internet or in a football crowd or a crowded pub or whatever, and some do bad stuff when they are anonymous. In fact, perhaps one reason some people are averse to cameras is because they strip their anonymity right off and confront them with their violation in stark terms.

But these ideas remove anonymity, which humbles people and fixes them into their environment. They can’t do bad stuff without getting seen, known and named, which is rather like the old days, before we had all these cars, the Internet, massive crowds and binge drinking bars. With this technology, you must remember that you are part of a sharing community, which maybe can take you some of the way towards building a strong society.

That's one view, anyway.

_________________
I stole this .sig

I think this one may be true. I was speaking to one of the mechanics at my garage about it. He owns an import Impreza which has Japanese sized number plate holders, they're like UK square ones only a bit wider and not as tall and you have to have a smaller font to fit it in. There is a clause in the law that allows this.

Apparently he's been pulled 4 times for it recently, and the coppers now think that so long as there is physically space on the front bumper, then you have to have a UK standard one, even if it means drilling holes and having an enormous incorrectly sized gap sticking out above and below the plate.

The thing that gets me is the majority of these small Japanese size number plates I see are found on import minivans like the Toyota Previa and Mitsubishi Delica being driven around slowly by old people who have no intention of ever speeding (or even doing 30), they're not going to notice that this law has changed until suddenly a SWAT team of coppers from the slightly-small-font-squad turns up at their door at 4AM.

Evidence of a vivid imagination on drugs I'd say.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

And that nicely dovetails with what I said about the government implementing any IT system. Magistrates court system anyone - screw up from beginnning to end
National NHS IT system - again what a load of shit
CSA, need I say any more?
HMRC - again a fine example how to automatically fine companies for no apparent reason, along with missing records etc...

And we do have a right as individuals to being anonymous - why should our every move be supervised by robots - have you seen the film minority report?

_________________
"Are you sh**ing me?"
"John Spartan, you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute."

My father in law was one of the people responsible for starting a very well known motorcycle club back in 1967, and I was a member of a very well known motorcycle club back in the early nineties.
As soon as you become a member of certain motorcycle clubs, then you automatically get that sort of attention.


Aside from the fact I have seen the info that the police keep on me, it was also confirmed to me by a high ranking officer at Tintagel House in the run up to my wedding.

_________________
What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

In the old days, before NI numbers, driving licences and passports, it was enormously easier to be anonymous as soon as you had gone beyond your home village.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

That’s the gist of it. That is why, when the technology to go beyond your home village became ubiquitous, anonymity was artificially reduced with NI numbers, driving licences and passports etc.

_________________
I stole this .sig

You guys are the paranoid ones!

_________________
I stole this .sig

Hi Basingmates! Welcome back - missed you really.

I have a number - had it most of my professional life so far. But am not in favour of survelliance. In any case - how am I supposed to knwo who to keep my cameras trained on 24/7. We'd need more policemen than population to this and we weould, in essence , be in a KGB type Russia where we all spy on and snitch on each other.




No really - if we stop them - provided they give their real name - we can find licence details within minutes.

Yes - there are flaws in the DVLA records which crop up on odd occasions - but by and large - we can trace from the reg numbers. Usually these are upright people ... normally ....
....


I think I am more anonymous on my bicycle to be honest.



Internet - yes I agree sod to trace! cyber/internet cafes and proxies ....makes life difficult especially if we are investigating a scam of some kind. What really scares me is the people who let themselves be duped by some e-mail saying they had wons some prize - but to cllaim they had to send money to someone....and they did! I cannot fathom this! Really! Been a all my working life and I still cannot understand why some people fall for this kind of caper nor the belief that "if it's on the internet - it is correct and indisputable". It's like any other source of information - some is OK and valid and backed up and some - quite frankly is biggest load of sh:censored: te since sh:censored: te became invented as a word to describe it!

As for violence in a pub - we are called to arrest and they are not anonymous when we place them in a nice cell - same with football hooligans and even if they slip the net - bit of intellingent, quaint old fashioned policework and we get a profile of our man (or woman) and eventually ... we collar them! Admit - can take us a while sometimes - but we get there eventually!




I can look at umpteen CCTC recordings of crimes and be none the wiser. I might know what they look like... but I still do not know much else about them.



We do not have the means to identify from CCTV cams. I know you'll come back with bio-metirc doo-dah to recognise - buit even then - still back to a staffing issue and what do you do if person wears maks of dark glasses to conceal the bio metirc doo-dah from an eye - and you have to be certain that the camera in question will focus on this. It is not going to be able to take a photo of his DNA, blood group ...and you can bet he will not look into the lens to be identified anyway.



Basingmate - we have a good public here and we work on relationships.

"Ello Ello Ello!" style

And before cars - we had horses, hansom cabs and I ratther think that "stagecoaches" apart - people with their own horses and traps had a similar isolate travel style.



Yes - I agree - it brings about an isolate lifestyle. I have two computers. One is in my "den" where I work on work I sometimes bring home to complete and keep on top of....the routine rigmarole which I ran out of time to do because of other pressure. My other machine which is the one I usually use to post to this site is my laptop and I tend to play in full view of the family in the living room - watching TV with them and chatting at the the same time The Mad Cats have a study separated by a fancy stained glass door and their so-called "kitten corner" - an area with a computer for each of their children is across the the way and in full view of them. This we think reduces or contains the "isolate and insensitive " psyche which we think internet chat rooms can induce in people. I think psoting in the open with your immediate family being aware does counter any inhumanity creeping in, At least I hope it does.



Basingmate - when I attend an event with a large crowd - I make small talk with person near me. For example - have footage of one of this family filming a stage of last year's TOB and whilst he was filming - was chatting about the riders and techniques to a complete stranger. Another member of this family went to see the start of the TOB in Buxton and ended up inviting a group of Oz holidaying cyclists to their home for tea and cake and exchanging great rides and drives as well. So I guess it depends on how good you are at socialising, weighing people up on develloped insitinct - whiuch I fear is undermined by the isolate lifestyle of TV, computer, long hours cultures and fast microwaved processed food - which hardly feeds a human brain which developed its potential from Nature's own.

Binge drinking bars? Again we are into this British culture thing. It is regarded as "sinful" so people will misbehave. That Swiss"riff raff" I have the misfortune at times to be related to gew up with wine at the table and are far more relaxed about beer and wines than I am.

Having said that - if they plan to drive a car - they drink water or Ame or Elderflower Presse. If they are not drivoing - then they will have a glass or two of wine with a meal and perhaps a beer on a "jholly night out" - but always with their pals - as with myself.

A camera technology though... Wildy and Jessika are both better able than I am to comment - but from what they said back in the 80s on thjeri return - it does not bond a society - but instils fear and uncertainty and suspicion between neighbours - and I would not wish this to become our culture.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Umm, I thought you were arguing that progress increased anonymity.


Please be consistent...

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed