Safe Speed Forums

Yes. Parents owe it to their children to teach that. But we can’t assume that a particular child (or adult even) is “tuned in” to that message though– the default fail-safe assumption would be that they are not “tuned in” and will go onto a crossing unexpectedly if they can, because, sooner or later, one will make that mistake.



That is what they hope to accomplish by pedestrianisation, by-passes and traffic calming! There was an era when the car was king, and walkers had to accept any old rubbish from the planners. In recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way – we’ll have to see how far it goes before drivers refuse to be pushed any further. One way to release the pressure for curbs and controls is to drive in a calm and collaborative way that is less intrusive to other road users. Let’s be Gentlemen. That way, we give drivers a good-name, and people won’t want to give us a hard time. Nobody can disagree with that, but I still see a lot of hot-headed drivers who don’t practise it at all.

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I stole this .sig

Now that's what I call driving, not the egotistic rubbish they show on Top Gear!

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I stole this .sig

The essential here is that for the interaction between car and pedestrian to be made as failsafe as possible, both sides need to learn to take responsibility for the other. If the driver assumes the pedestrian will step out without looking, and the pedestrian assumes that the car won't stop if he does, then we have a system that is safe as long as only one side fails at any given time.

Unfortunately, we seem to be tending towards a system where this onus is placed solely on the driver to take care. If this reaches its logical conclusion we than have a system whereby every failure by the driver will result in an accident.


I agree. But the problem is that motoring enforcement is concentrating more and more on enforcement of petty technical infringements and less and less on fostering these sorts of good attitudes. This is exactly where the "roadside chat" by a TrafPol works so well, and the "Notice of Intended Prosecution" works so badly.

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

That style of assumption is fundamental to real road safety. When we mess up, someone else is usually well placed to save the day. These complimentary behaviours contribute greatly to the 'error tolerance' of the road safety system as a whole.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I was wondering about the safety of zebra crossings last year (this thread) and I haven't got any less worried since. As I see it the big worry is in heavy traffic. There's more vehicles, especially large vehicles, around than there used to be, and that can obscure a driver's sightline of pedestrians waiting to cross from the right. The specific situation that's happened to me on a number of occasions (in and around London mainly) is where a large vehicle like a Transit, luton, HGV etc heading in the opposite direction has just cleared the crossing before being forced to stop by traffic. As I approach the crossing from the other side of the road I can clearly see if a pedestrian wants to cross from my side of the road but can't see the right hand side at all until I'm almost level with the back of the vehicle that's blocking my view, and by that time I'm almost on the crossing itself and a pedestrian may have already begun to cross from the right . Obviously I've easily avoided running anyone over by approaching zebra crossings in those circumstances with great care, usually only to find that there wasn't anyone there after all and I need not have slowed down so much. But I'm reluctant to change the habit as there have been a few occasions when there was someone crossing or about to cross from the right, and at the very least I've avoided scaring the hell out of them needlessly if not worse.

I beleive the whole problem could be easily avoided with pedestrian controlled lights, though I'm unsure whether pelicans or toucans or albatrosses or whatever would be best. But whatever the type lights clearly establish whether cars of pedestrians should go or wait, and don't force drivers to slow down just in case when the lights are green but both sides of the crossing can't be clearly seen.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Yes, that is exactly the sort of situation I have in mind. Like you, I slow down drastically, to ensure that I could stop if necessary. What worries me is that I never see anyone else doing the same thing, e.g. there'll be a car a long way behind me that will steam up behind me across the zebra crossing, as if they're baffled as to why I've slowed down so much. I do want to go out and take a photo of the crossing I'm talking about so people can see why it's so dangerous, but it's raining here at the moment.

Okay, here are a couple of pics of the crossing where the fatal accident occurred. I want to be clear that I do not know the circumstances of how the accident happened. However I have often thought in the past that this particular crossing is quite dangerous. In the first picture, you can see the path leading down to the riverside near the end of the crossing. People on this path are invisible to car drivers until they're very close to the crossing. The second picture shows the view from that path. Joggers and cyclists often come from the path at quite a speed, expecting to be able to go straight across the road, because of course just as the traffic can't see them, they also can't see the traffic.

The other problem is that many people walk along the pavement past the crossing, but will not want to cross. The pavement isn't very wide, so you can't easily tell if someone wants to cross or not. Indeed today, driving there to take the pictures, I had to stop for someone who turned out not to be wanting to cross. The safety issue this causes is that if someone keeps stopping and then realising it wasn't necessary, they may over time get into the habit of never bothering to stop unless it's absolutely clear the person is wanting to cross. And then someone walks onto the crossing without warning, and we have an accident.

I've always wanted pelican crossings similar to those we have now, except that to activate it you have to hold the button down and keep it held.

That way, if you press it and then decide to cross before the lights change as about 50% of people do, the request is cancelled and the lights don't change for no reason. Having to wait at a crossing which no one is using is aggravating and causes drivers to disrespect the system.

True, you could argue that drivers should respect a red traffic light whatever the situation, but if pedestrians don't respect a 'red man' if it is otherwise clear to cross, why is it so different for drivers?

This is a good one. A little-known point to add favour to this: Emergency vehicles on blues may treat stop signs and red lights as give-ways. however, they have NO dsispensation to run pedestrian crossings on red.

Okay, so there are some zebra crossings that have their own specific problems with visibility or whatever because of where they're sited. But I think the traffic visibility problem is more worrying since it's going to be common to all zebra crossings on roads that get enough use to cause jams. I'm not sure I explained it very well before so...

Okay, apologies for the quality of that - I've spent more time thinking about it than drawing it . Obviously it depends on a lot of things, whether the traffic is actually stationery or merely moving slowly, what sort of vehicle is in the way, what sort is potentially being hidden to the pedestrian and vice versa, and where the pedestrian themselves chooses to stand. But anyway, the problem goes away simply by changing the zebra into a pedestrian controlled light crossing.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Gatso

By the time the lead cars at the zebra get to the position they are at, their drivers should have a 99.5% record of who is where from several tens of earlier eye flicks in the two to five seconds leading to their position. If the traffic coing towards you at a zebra is so thick (ie following so closely) that you can't see through gaps between cars, then caution and extremely low speed is indicated anyway.

Which is exactly the problem, isn't it? Seen it more times than I can think in city driving, especially west London. When it's that thick we have to drive slower in case a pedestrian at the zebra is being masked, which there isn't 9 times out of 10 but as responsible drivers we have to assume there may be, and that in turn slows the traffic further and so on.

IMO pedestrian controlled lights are much better for drivers and pedestrians alike, at least on busy roads. The possibility of a pedestrian being masked by another vehicle becomes irrelevant since drivers will (except for nutters) stop for a red light regardless of whether they can see a pedestrian or not. Any confusion over priority also becomes a non-issue since the lights clearly indicate who can go when and who can't. And when there are no pedestrians the lights stay green and drivers are not unnecessarily impeded by having to treat all crossings as if there may be a pedestrian obscured by a van. AFAICT there are only two downsides. One is the issue of morons with no intention of crossing pressing the button and running off, but Zamzara's suggestion would prevent that. The other is that zebras probably cost less, but if I was into cheap options I'd support Gatsos and Talivans . Seriously though, do zebras cost that much less in the long term? I'm sure installing one in the first place is cheaper, but what's the difference over say a ten year period and would that justify a zebra if pedestrian controlled lights are better suited?

Incidentally, I'm not anti all zebra crossings. I just think that roads that are prone to heavy traffic or have specific problems with visibility etc pedestrian lights are a better option, just as on fast wide roads a bridge would be better than either. I'm quite happy with the idea of zebras on roads where traffic is neither fast nor very heavy since that will mean that drivers can easily see pedestrians and vice versa (though I haven't always felt this way). It's about using the right option in the right places. Locally we have very few zebras but plenty of pelicans, though I can't see any reason not to use zebras in most of those cases. In west London I think it's the other way round - too many zebras where pelicans would be better.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Heavens! It;'s a COAST basic. I see zebra and beacons ahead - sweeping glance takes in pedestrians - by the time I'm approaching - have already reacted and adjusted for likelihood of pulling up to allow person to cross.

Even if I'm on full sirens - still looking and adjusting.

Expect to see zebra, pelican, puffin, toucan in town and a pegasus on outskirts.

However, as someone who was fined as a 14 year old for running a red man - and getting all those Swiss cousins of mine into hot water over it - have to say this line of enforcement does work - and the armed policeman gave me my first lesson as to how to deliver a lecture firmly, politely - but with a lasting and searing acid!

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Exactly - form pieces of the jigsaw puzzle all the time. The more the merrier, and concentrate on where it matters.

Of course, and I don't mean to sound like I'm disagreeing with that. I must be doing it, or close to it, otherwise I'd be bound to have hit someone by now. What I'm saying is that pedestrian controlled lights would be a better option than zebras in areas where pedestrians at crossings, or even large stretches of pavement, can be obscured by traffic. If you've got half a dozen stationery HGVs and vans nose to tail on the other side of the road the pavement on the right might as well have a wall on the kerb. You can have large spaces where you just don't know who and what and how many are on that pavement, and the first opportunity to have a good shufty over there to see exactly what the situation is may well be at the zebra crossing itself. I'm not just scenario building by the way - Hanworth Road going out of Hounslow. Line of traffic including delivery vehicles heading into Hounslow and fairly free flowing traffic heading out. Not like that all the time by any means, but I've seen it that way more than once. COAST drivers will obviously slow down, and if necessary even creep up to a zebra in 1st to allow for the possibility of previously obscured pedestrian being on the crossing. But wouldn't it be a hell of a lot simpler just to have a pelican crossing instead?

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

In your photo - I'd agree a pelican would probably be better - but I rather think a jogger or cyclist would still charge out there - I'd be inclined to chicane the exit: they did that at a park exit here where cyclists in particular would pull into traffic without looking. They placed a barrier which means they have to get off the bike and wheel though. and calming humps . The cyclists were not amused at first - but it's grown on them....

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Until pedestrians take up COAST universally, I'd say a PELICAN was a must - since there are many drivers too without it.

Saw a few brilliant displays today - not the RAF ones, but pedestrians behaving stupidly in Bowness. Walking up Kendal Road under a hedge with no pavement, when there was a pavement on the other side - I had the windows down, so I slowed right down, and pointed it out to them.

Noted the PELICAN on Bowness Prom was universally respected though - and until the mini roundabout by the old Royal Hotel, there was little to worry about today - but up the hill?
I was convinced the entire North Lancashire Crack Suicide Display Team had turned out in force!!!

"Forward shields up Mr Sulu!"

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I.G. - Calming humps - for ther cyclists? Ah - you mean the bunny hops

Thanks - those picture really tell a story, don't they? They show a site littered with visual clues to drivers that it is an extremely hazardous zone – narrow pavements, beacons, signs, fat zebra crossing lines, barriers of various types etc. It is hard for a careful driver to imagine what sort of mental state a driver would be in to drive fast through that crossing - you might as well drive into a bus queue! Anyone can see why the authorities are tempted to sort those road slobs out with a 20 mph limit with cameras and sump-bashing-humps, before they kill somebody else.


Edit: sorry for that inflammatory post above, but when I saw those pics, I could see in my minds eye exactly the kind of thoughtless fool who ‘thinks’ he is at a safe speed, but ignores all the clues. I could be wrong, but it has the hallmarks of pure TIBMIN. I had a tailgater in King’s Lynn last night doing it to me!

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Why a 20mph limit instead of pedestrian controlled lights? What advantage does the former have over the latter?


If it was someone who thought they were at a safe speed but was wrong then that highlights the need for better driver training. If it was a TIBMIN, and I think they're quite different types, then do you really want the vegetative muppet ogling the speedo to make sure he stays at 20? And what about the worst TIBMINs, the ones who do 45 on straight wide NSLs and then stay at 45 when the road goes through a twisty village? What makes you think that the dormant buggers will suddenly start driving to the conditions? One of the few things you can rely on them to do is stop when presented with a big red light. Well, sometimes anyway.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein