Safe Speed Forums

The bench and the clerk are only allowed to ask questions to clarify what has been said already. They must not ask a question which would introduce new evidence. In practice, as they have no way of knowing what the answer will be, they take a risk if they ask anything at all.



In the UK we have an adversarial system. That means the two sides are responsible for ensuring that their case is fully explained.
So its not up to the bench to know, its up to the CPS or the defence to introduce the evidence and tell them.


I couldn't begin to count the number of times we have sat in the retiring room and said "why on earth didn't he ask about xyz, as that would probably have destroyed the other sides case".

How would you feel if the bench asked a question which enabled the prosecution to close a gap in their case and which led directly to a guilty verdict when you had been well on your way to a not guilty?

I have seen a case where a defendant lost originals in a house fire and, having had the foresight to scan everything on to his computer was able to produce copies from off site backups. These were allowed after he had stated on oath that they had not been manipulated.
That was unusual though as JPs are highly likely to refuse to admit anything other than originals or properly certified copies, whichever side is putting them forward. DJs (in my limited experience of such creatures) are usually very willing to admit such documents.

Bad luck Ernest! At least you went down fighting and you didn't get fined too badly! Did you have a lawyer present? I sometimes wonder (not that I've had any legal experience) whether the system might be more likely to "steamroller" an individual conducting his own defence.

From what you say, it also seems amazing to me that they can show a couple of (pretty poor) photos and decide within 8 inches where the tyres are and then, when questioned, just glibly say "oh we've got some magic software back at base to do all that"! I thought they had to give you access to ALL their evidence if you decide to fight it?

"points of contact" eh? Hmmmm maybe I don't hate caravans as much as I used to! - or maybe a stretched limo with a very long rear overhang...

Yes, very bad luck there Ernest......You have MY sympathy also. Once again our corrupt legal system has been brought into disrepute by those charged with defending it. I have NO faith in "British" justice anymore........

That would seem to be entirely reasonable. However, to make a more accurate analogy with my case, what if he said he'd simply burned the originals anyway, as he didn't want the bother of storing them?

That would certainly echo my experience. How interesting.

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

I could not feel more for you. It really saddens me to see yet another abuse of our judicial system. In the last few months I have lost complete faith in what is deemed law and order. It makes me all the more scarred about when mine is now heard as it has now been adjourned until October. Being done in lincolnshire can be just as bad as your area.

It makes us all realise how much the system enforces the rule of 'pay up and shut up' on us for speeding offences.

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Cheryl
Lady with a mission - to fight a speeding procecution - whoops they did not expect someone who understands calibration

Stop playing with words Fisherman. Was the behavior in court acceptable or unacceptable?

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

So they exempt then from the Limitation Act which say all official document to be kept for minimum of 6 years

After all - this ist document which kick off the "order" which generate the "sale" of the NIP - which result in the "payment"

It a business - with a business plan after all. They make no fines -- they get no pay after all.

Steviebabes who lurk. You may bluster otherwise on local media - but that ist the reality here, Und you not saving any lives either. Articles in local press do not indicate this.. A&E around area do not indicate this. Even your stats do not indicate this - though you use your appalling failure rate to justify your scams

You should be focussing more on COAST/ what said in Mind Driving /Craft series of excellent advice etc.


By the way Ern.. I am sorry about you losing case. But if more challenge or brave enough to challenge - then perhaps message of daft way to keep road safer might just permeate through the dense wooden tops they have for "grey matter"

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

While I still favour the option of civil unrest, I guess that is the way to do it really.
If every single last person took the court option instead of just paying up, the judicial system would be on it's arse within a month.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Actually, as I understand it, because I didn't take the fixed penalty, he wont be getting any of my money, it will go straight to the treasury.
Perhaps they'll buy him a mini submarine so he can go and issue parking tickets in Gloucestershire - there must be several still parked longer than they have paid for!!

Many thanks for all your good wishes!
What is really criminal is a company which went into administration owning me £650 is back trading, and when you enter the new web address, it takes you straight to the old website, with the old name.
Any ideas how to tackle this anyone? I could use the money just now!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Unless put forward by the prosecution, it would seem.

I agree with you Fisherman, Ernest would appear to be one of the more sensible posters on this forum, but he still got shafted by what used to be the envy of the world, our legal system. It stinks. I believe the motto behind every court is "Honi Soit, Qui Mal y Pense" or similar. Anyone know what the Latin is for "Money before Safety & Justice"?

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Online translators give "Viaticus pro Salus quod Justicia"

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Prepare to be Judged

Thanks - found another one which rolls off the tongue (well mine anyway) a bit easier... Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

I don't suppose I could copyright that phrase to prevent the scumera pratnerships using it as their motto?

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Sorry to hear that you have been denied justice also Ernest.

I respect that you kept the information off the forum until after the event. Another poster on another forum fell foul of the farce that passes for motoring justice last week. I believe he made the mistake of keeping a thread running with details of the way the case was proceeding. Useful to have confirmed that the CPS will try anything to win a case, fair or foul but probably gave too much away as well as encouraging the CPS to be seen to win.

My policy is to give nothing away until afterwards either. And fight as foul as the other side.

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Richard Ceen
We live in a time where emotions and feelings count far more than the truth, and there is a vast ignorance of science (James Lovelock 2005)

If I found myself in court knowing I was guilty but hoping for the prosecution to leave a gap open that'd leave me a free man at the end of the day, then I might be a bit pissed off to have it closed in that way, but I'd just consider it bad luck not to get away with whatever it was rather than a travesty of justice not to have been let off for doing it.

On the other hand, if I found myself in court knowing I'd done nothing wrong but ended up being found guilty because I or whoever was conducting my defence similarly left open a gap that the CPS could exploit, then I'd be incandescent with rage...

So wouldn't it be better if the system maximised the opportunity to come up with the right verdict, if it meant that a) the genuinely guilty were found guilty more often than they are now, and b) the genuinely innocent weren't steamrollered by the might of a government-financed prosecution system which - rightly or not - is seen by many ordinary people as being the master of dirty tricks in order to secure easy prosecutions of trivial cases where guilt is clearly up for debate, yet apparently too incompetent to put away genuine menaces to society when the case against them seems bulletproof?

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Chris

Liebchen! You are "einfach wunderbar". You do give me the giggles. Even if you are down as I think you must be. I give you a virtual hug und many kisses anyway



I wish I could help you in that one. It criminal back home to continue to trade if insolvent or short of money to pay the supplier.

Bankruptcy courts? You get the dust mites in reality.

If a sole trader or unlimited partnership - I think you might be able to sue in civil courts claiming against personal asset for surety. I think you need to contact CAB or solicitor's free half hour here - mein liebstes Liebchen who post loveliest of posts.. amusing dry wit with much touches of the very real human man making them.

A fine bloke. Like Rigpig

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

What this farcical case really shows up is the postcode justice system in action. In Lanca$hire 46/40 is offically a "caution" then courses after that up to 49.

I know from my own research, as well as assisting Mr Marsh, that there are very severe problems with the fixed scams in CSCP land - it's only a matter of time before the truth comes out

Justice, whatever that is nowadays, will eventually be done

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That's how Nazi Germany started. They'll be burning books next. (Brian Noble, Wigan coach - updated 20/4/06!!).

The analogy doesn't work because defence and prosecution are not equal in a criminal case: the prosecution bears the burden of proof, and the defendant is entitled to the benefit of any reasonable doubt. So a doubt in the minds of the bench one way is not equivalent to a doubt the other way.

I don't know, I wasn't there.

Even though I have a level of experience in these matters I am not prepared to follow the example set by so many others on here and guess.