Safe Speed Forums

Agree with everyone else here on how clueless these council people are.

Follow this link to see Jeremy Clarkson's view on this - very funny

Anyone watch Question Time last night?

They were all banging on (again) about how it's 4x4's that are the most polluting. Not one person (Panel or audience) put forth a counter-argument to the fact that it's not necessarily true...

Having said that, I'd still like to see urban 4x4's banned...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Why? Can you, without referring to appearance, give criteria you would use to impose the ban?

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Will

It's nothing to do with the actual car - it's more to do with the 4x4 driver attitude. In my experience, urban 4x4 drivers are very aggressive drivers - they seem to think that the bullbars are there to intimidate others to get out of their way and maybe the driver feels invincible.

I realise this is stereo-typing, but that's my experience...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Never mind that. Just define "urban".

Still, I'd like to see those (20x more dangerous than cars) motorcycles banned. It's the attitude of the riders I don't like ...

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Town or city...

The reason I said urban, was to distinguish from rural areas or areas where a 4x4 is useful and has practical advantages...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

So, I lve in a country village. I want to go into my local big town to take my infirm mother to the shops. I only have a 4x4 . What should I do?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Once again this is miss informed people.

Electric cars still pollute.
What about the environmental costs of making everyone buy new “environmentally friendly cars” how much CO2 is produced in the manufacture of cars? If you buy a used petrol car rather than a new hybrid, surly this is more environmentally friendly.

I cannot understand how electric or hybrid cars are better for the environment.
What is used in to make the battery of the electric car- how does it get disposed of?
In Hybrid cars you make an engine and a battery powered motor so you manufacture two power pants for the car.

If you want to tax the amount CO2 produced by cars surly you must consider the amount of CO2 to produce the thing and the amount of CO2 it produces in it's life.

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Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

Divide and conquer! It's a fantastic tactic to use to manipulate the ignorant in order to drive a hidden agenda. The whole discussion has nothing to do with anything other than taxing people they think they can cream more money off.

Clarkson's sarcastic comments about giving away free tickets to the MPH show to 4x4 owners and charging electric car owners £1million entry puts the point accross perfectly - there is no underlying argument beyond prejudice. Richmond council are doing this simply because they think they can.....

His point about communist dictatorship is bang-on too!

Spot on (although I'm sure you meant power plants )

I had a discussion yesterday with a well-intentioned but sadly indoctrinated probationer teacher yesterday regarding recycling a disused fridge sitting in one of our offices. I explained to her, using the fridge as an example, that often recycling will consume more energy than constructing and using a newer, more efficient to run and produce item.

The coolant used in the old fridge is of a type that has since been superceded, and new fridges consume far less electrical energy because they use more efficient coolant gasses, so in their lifetime it would be will be more 'environmentally friendly' simply to chuck the old one away.

She went into 'la la la, I'm not listening' mode....

So, you wish to ban something that you cannot define purely because of your own perceptions and prejudices?

FWIW, most drivers of 4x4s where I live are very courteous (but then most drivers here are courteous, full stop). The most agressive drivers seem to be young (which implies inexperience) or police officers

However, a local road is a favourite with bikers. Its sweeping curves attract them like flies to a honey-pot every summer weekend and they terrorise the neighbourhood tearing down that road, often well in excess of the speed limit and often on the wrong side of the road. Now a call to ban all bikes because of the actions of a small minority has the same (or less) validity as your wish to ban 4x4s from towns and cities.

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Will

No, I don't think so. The CFC refrigerant gases we used to use were quite a bit better than the modern replacements. We stopped using them because of the ozone layer. I have believed that this change was justified, but on the basis of modern junk science, maybe we were robbed there too.

Modern improvements in fridges come mainly from better insulation I think.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Sorry, I should have said. The fridge in question is 'post CFC' and uses one of the first generation alternatives, plus I'm pretty sure the reason it isn't functioning any more is because the gas has escaped.

The point is it would be more 'energy saving' to have a new fridge rather than get the existing one recharged with the less efficient coolant it is compatible with, or have it modified to accept the newer refrigerants.

Divide and conquer, certainly. But I think the underlying motivation is car hatred, and they are starting by 'ring fencing' a 'softer' target.

It's INCITING HATRED and we shouldn't stand for it. Unfortunately it's mainly off-topic for Safe Speed - but I will be saying 'inciting hatred' every time I get the chance.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I would remind everyone that this proposal does not mention 4x4s at all. It mentions the vague term "gas guzzlers" which on closer inspection includes Fiestas and similar family cars.

I would bet that the misinterpretation of this as only applying to 4x4s is exactly what they intended, giving them much undeserved and unwitting support for a very different agenda.

I think I have spotted the flaw in the Richmond plan

Neil Herron reckons its illegal and that there is a previous upheld complaint against a council that tried to do something similar.

The 1984 Traffic Regulation Act makes it illegal for an LA to charge more for a permit than the admin cost of its provision.

see here for Neils comment

http://tinyurl.com/v9qty

Perhaps banning the Richmond Lib Dems from talking would have a greater effect on greenhouse emissions.

As always

Mark

No - it's because of my own experiences, which is why I mad it bold in my original posting. I also said that I realised it was stereotyping, but I can't help my thoughts or actions based on my own experiences. Similar to how I feel when I'm approaching a potentially hazardous road junction - I draw on my past experiences to enable me to navigate it safely...

Similarly, I don't like certain sectors of our society, because in my experience, they've always been troublesome...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Perhaps I didn't make my point clear. I'm not against the 4x4 as a vehicle - I'm against the 'type' of driving that I experience from an urban 4x4 driver.

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

That's called stereotyping!

While in a previous post,

FWIW, this seems to be the case each time I investigate why a particular person is against 4x4s. They're not against 4x4s but are against a particular type of person or sector of society that their prejudice (often erroneously) associates with 4x4 ownership.

For every excuse the anti-4x4 brigade choose to "justify" their incitement of social hatred and their anti-social behaviour, something other than a 4x4 is worse than any 4x4 and many 4x4s fare better than many non-4x4 types. Behaviour similar to that of the anti-4x4 brigade has led to some of the worst attocities in human history, and so should not be tolerated.

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Will