Safe Speed Forums

So HOW can cameras stop accidents when they ONLY SENSE speeds OVER A FIXED DIGIT?

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

That's one of Georgeous George Galloway's favorite put downs! Unfortunately, in this case, no one made that argument in the first place! It's you who has implied that there are only two different road scenarios that you care about, and that is the true schoolboy howler, old boy!

PS: I'm submitting on an Apple MacBook (sorry to boast) but it's working poorly. Are windows users having the same problem?

yes mine's really slow at the moment.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

define an URBAN area

Residential and shopping streets, the benefits are clear:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/oct/1 ... port.world

20mph zones in London have reduced all casualties by 42% and deaths and serious injuries by 53%:

In Hull:

Across 13 zones installed in 1996/97;

crashes fell by 56%
people killed and seriously injured by 90%
The Council also saw a first year economic rate of return from these schemes of 1,160%.

On average, each zone has reduced overall injuries by around 60% and child pedestrian injuries by 75%. Hull's crash reductions saved an estimated £35m, by 2002


http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/sustainable/w ... 794?page=6

Unfortunately, in this case, no one made that argument in the first place!

It's in the very first link in this thread, the campaign's take on TRL 421, and graball and a few other posters have cited the fewer accidents on motorways as evidence that speeding is not dangerous.

So HOW can cameras stop accidents when they ONLY SENSE speeds OVER A FIXED DIGIT?

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

I told you it was political. The trouble with politics, oliver, is that you don't know for sure if it's working until you win. But we get feedback as councils falls in line.

"It's in the very first link in this thread, the campaign's take on TRL 421, and graball and a few other posters have cited the fewer accidents on motorways as evidence that speeding is not dangerous."

DEFINE SPEEDING

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

999oliver, do you think that it would be better to engage with drivers about road safety as a whole, or do you want people to just driver slower?

Read what I said. I deliberately used the word velocity rather than speed Two vehicles travelling in the same direction at the same speed cannot collide.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Because people don't want a fine or points so they moderate their speed. The speed limit under ACPO guidelines can be slightly exceeded and you don't even get flashed, a margin is built in. The "fixed digit" is the law, you can argue against the limit but you can't complain "It's not fair, I only broke the law a bit!".

Do you have difficulty knowing what the speed limit is when you drive?

Are you distracted by cameras? Pretty gardens? Cop cars? Drivers who are half competent should never allow themselves to be distracted by inanimate metal boxes whenever they see them.

"Read what I said. I deliberately used the word velocity rather than speed Two vehicles travelling in the same direction at the same speed cannot collide."


dcbwhaley


Totally irrelevant to the argument

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

I've answered this. Motorways, who cares, raise the limit. All urban roads being 20mph zones would save lives and money.

Oliver,you are not answering the question, how can driving at below a fixed speed STOP ACCIDENTS?

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

So, for example, just about every road inside M25 should be 20 limit?

Do you think that the same reasults could be achieved if all road users were educated, empowered and encouraged to use the road space with care and roads had problems engineered out of them where possible?

Once again:

TRL 421, "The effects of drivers' speed on the frequency of road accidents" published in March 2000. Unlike TRL 323, this study was designed to discover the speed-crash relationship.

The authors looked at 300 sections of road, made 2 million observations of speed and got 10,000 drivers to complete questionnaires. They found that

the faster the traffic moves on average, the more crashes there are (and crash frequency increases approximately with the square of average traffic speed)
the larger the spread of speeds around the average, the more crashes there are

The study confirmed what is described as a 'robust general rule' relating crash reductions to speed reductions: for every I mph reduction average speed, crashes are reduced by between 2-7%. More specifically, the crash reduction figure is around

6% for urban roads with low average speeds
4% for medium speed urban roads and lower speed rural main roads
3% for higher speed urban roads and rural main roads
To put the dangerousness of speed into perspective, how many drivers care about or would notice a 2mph reduction in their average speed? Yet, averaged across the entire road network, a mere 2mph reduction in average speeds would prevent more than 200 deaths and 3,500 serious casualties a year. The authors of TRL 421 suggest that this target (about a sixth of the overall speed related casualty figure) is a 'reasonable minimum' to aim for.

End quote.

Lower speeds allow for more time for anticipation, and an important side effect would be the encouragement of more cyclists and pedestrians. Rather than a stressful struggle through traffic lower speeds make the roads environment more pleasant, more people cycle, cycling gets safer, drivers themselves take up cycling and hence become more aware of cyclists when they drive, children get to school safely and are more alert than if they had been carried in a vehicle, pollution is reduced, congestion is reduced, accidents are reduced.

You know what?

I'd LIKE to have a situation where the roads are safest for those most at risk. Children from poor families are more likely to be hurt or killed in an RTA, deprived as they are of play areas. Home Zones provide these areas and work brilliantly, it's a far more civilised, safe environment.

So, for example, just about every road inside M25 should be 20 limit?

Plainly not, since I linked to the page setting out the criteria and it says nothing like this silly misrepresentation. My mouth's big enough without you putting words in it.

I am not looking now for evidence that speeding is not dangerous. I merely require evidence that it is. In response, you have said that speed and accidents are related, but then you have said that there are two different scenarios in the relationship, and it became conditional. Isn't that funny ... exactly two scenarios, no more, and the relationship holds true?

What nonsense - there are millions of scenarios, and well you know it. I was rather hoping you'd come back and deny that there are millions of different road scenarios, so that your "motorways are especially special" claim could be true.

But that would defeat your claim that accidents are related to the square of speed (even allowing for your "approximately" weasel word). And you're too clever to fall into that trap eh? But now you are hoist by your own petard, oliver. So come on, admit it. You hate cameras like the rest of us!

When quoting the recent statistics on " crashes " one must take into account the introduction of free bus passes for OAP's, I suspect that many of the most incompetent amongst them have given up driving personally as a result. Of course the university boffins will have totally failed to pick this aspect up as it dents their anti-speed rhetoric.

It's pretty close to my view, I have to say. The only difference I'd make is this. Sure, make it 20, 25 or 30, whatever. But stop this 3 points/60 quid nonsense, it makes no sense and doesn't relate to the wrongdoing. Make it 0.2 point and a £2 fine. It would hurt the egregious wrongdoers, while once-or-twicers couldn't give a hoot, which is how it should be.

PS: whatever is done about speed cameras, I want to protect the rights of those who like to drive slowly, like me. Not so slow as to cause real problems, but slow in a refined, and graceful way, without jerking the wheel around or stamping on the brakes etc. We're not all Lewis Hamiltons, you know.