Safe Speed Forums

Recent posts by Ling and Mosis have brought this issue to the front of my mind. They have been expressing the idea that 'if people drove properly there wouldn't be any crashes'.

Ling was determined to tell us that if people drove to driving test standard there wouldn't be any crashes.

Mosis wants us retested every year to weed out the bad drivers.

These views totally miss the point. We need much subtler behaviour from our drivers than mere rules compliance. We need experienced visual search, good hazard perception, good risk assessment and the standard concentration, observation, anticipation, space and time behaviours. Rules cannot provide these qualities.

It seems that safe driving is something of a black art as far as current authorities are concerned. Instead of focusing on driver quality they focus on rules compliance. Obviously they are assuming that improved rules compliance will lead to improved driver quality. Insisting on speed limit compliance meets this faulty pattern.

Not only do we need these subtler behaviours, but by and large we actually have them. We need more of them, of course, but insisting on rules targets has no chance of delivering.

It's easy to understand the basic mistake - obviously dangerous drivers fail to observe basic rules and influence the crash stats. But dangerous drivers are dangerous because of skills shortfalls or attitude shortfalls. Breaking rules and having crashes are both consequences of the the same skills or attitude shortfalls.

Better drivers - most of us - crash because of simple mistakes in observation and attention, looking in the mirror too long or missing an approching vehicle for example. If we want to crash less we need broad based improvements in skills and attitudes, and the last thing we need is more focus on unimportant rules.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I don’t doubt that at all, but how do we accomplish and maintain ‘proper driving’? (especially in the absence of clear cut rules)

IMO: I think in-car video cameras capturing dangerous driving (irrespective of speed – would speed limits still be needed?), this being a good proxy measure of the lack of ‘experienced visual search, good hazard perception, good risk assessment and the standard concentration, observation, anticipation, space and time behaviours’, is a simple yet effective solution.

What other options are available to us and how effective would they be?

If we look back at history to determine the cause of our shining 'safest roads in the world' example, I can only find cultural influence as the cause.

So, cultural influence. Policies that provide rock solid information, set a high value on skills and training, Policies that reduce distraction and pressure. We'd be trying to shift the median driver closer to the perfect driver.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The problem with rule rigidity (and by that I don't just mean rigid enforcement of rules, but the belief that once the rules are set they are unreviewable, unquestionable and absolute) is that the rule setters and the rule backers become content that the issue is fixed and they have all the answers, because they are in the rules.

Questioning the rules is then seen as ridiculous and subversive, rather than an effort to improve the situation.

Cameras in the right circumstances might be able to be used to further educate, much as a camera can be used to improvesprts techniques. However, unlike the sports use, there would be psycological pressure to comply very rigidly with the law and certain customs and practices, eg, speed limit - rigid adherence. Never let the left hand come beyond 12 O'clock on the wheel etc etc.

For me it still comes down to resurrecting Hendon pass rates and increasing presence of trafpol.

And when a rule is found wanting - the result is like elephants mating -
done at high level, with lots of trumpeting and takes at least 24 months to get results.More likely another rule will be brought in.

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

I agree with that completely, but rules at least set out what is expected of us on the road. Its not rules per se thats the problem, its the enforcement of the rules for enforcements sake thats the issue.

No - I think the contrary is the problem. We currently have a government that believes that all that managers have to do to be seen to be solving a problem is handing down rules. When those rules fail you simply make more rules as that then appears that you are still doing your job.

The people who enforce the rules then go into jobsworth mode - the rules are ridiculous but it isn't going to be their neck on the line if they carry them out and something goes wrong, so they enforce them to the letter with the fall back position that they were doing exactly what they were told to do.

The problem is simple accountability, which doesn't exist any more when we have the people at the top telling us that we should be giving them more time to sort out the messes they created in the first place....

After giving your answer some thought, I have to conclude that you are right!
Today’s culture is, without doubt, based upon the opposite and it is to our determent.
Take the introduction of the motorway speed limit as an example. This was, for the most part, due to the spate of nasty crashes in fog. The authorities could have shown how socially unacceptable it is to not be able to stop in the distance one can reasonably expect to be clear; instead they said ‘don’t exceed 70’ to limit the subsequent damage.

There will always be individuals, ‘non-conformists’ if you will, who will want to rebel against the cultural climate or are too arrogant to accept it; these are probably why we have the rules that we do – ironically, these same people now deliberately break the rules instead. Unfortunately, these rules are affecting the rest of the population – the wrong people - for no good reason.

So what about the non-conformists: Would simply accepting them as part of driving encouraging them and others to be like them? Could they ever be significant?

In my own field I have done a lot of work studying cultural change, professional practice and the impact of training/development on both. I/we came to the conclusion that development aimed at changing practice "failed to take" where policy and procedure were not aligned to the changes aimed at, as they caused people to "drift" back to old practice. We therefore put into place policy change which emphasised the targetted behaviour and combined this with agressive training/development closely linked to real world professional activities. The intended cultural changes are now happening. This is an on-going process of course and not a one-off - subsequent policy changes will be needed to accelarate the changes in culture and practice.

I suspect this is not peculiar to my own field - so loks like Paul is right here.

I think the group you're calling 'non-conformists' are the group we need trafpol for. I'd call them the group(s?) with serious skills or attitude shortfalls.

In my world, non-conformity can be pretty good... There lives individuality and flair, which clearly are positive qualities.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Only this ist really the initial test. Ist the stepping stone to widening experience.

As you know Paul - family is one large family of serious car lovers.. well - anything on wheels to be honest. We ride bikes und some of us ride motorbikes too. Most of the Swiss ride horses too.

We have one almost 19 year old who pass test just before his youngest sister was born. We were very choosy as to instruction - we settled on RAC und booked block to give him hot housed insturction in controls on public roads. He had driven go karts und been in a simulator in Germany prior to this. But obviously not ever been on public road in a car. Cycling ist different - perception on bike ist not the same as in the car.

Once he had the control lessons - out with us und others in family. We instruct to COAST behaviour ... he learn. He then have more lessons to teach HOW to PASS test.. und this ist nub of problem as I tried to explain to lieber von over the road.

We have twins fast approaching 17 years. We have to have them on road together so we seek two different schools for them. As with William before them .. we told the pass rate.. und we do see schooling going on for the test alone. Ist not the same thing.


A school teacher will teach to pass GCSE exam but this does not mean "expertise" or even comprehension beyond a certain level.

So .. we teach them COAST once we feel they have basic car controls und then tighten to test approach prior to test date.

Thereafter - we ensure our young are out in driving seat with IG und the other family und ourselves to get the experience und COAST behaviour.

William (eldest) ist already IAM as are his other cousins who drive. Our twins are like-minded.. but then they do know the family history as well ..



We are pro a periodic assessment every few years.. but we say it has to be graded with some motivation to improve skills. We do not say "weed out the bad" - as "bad " ist taken care of by demand for

But our assessment idea ist more to do with COAST reminders than "test und harrass" und a really good drive should be rewarded with an insurance to match


Therein lies a difference with their views und we think a more correct approach to the problem as it try to improve, motivate und bring skill to taking pride in doing something well.

Simply saying "obey lolly und you are best und safest driver in world" does seem to miss the whole point as you rightly say




True - we try to touch on it in the chattier debates. Ist to do with chave manners in UK.. pressures .. rush.. rudeness in society which forget social skills und niceties to a point ...

Better education.. return to manners und polite, refined behaviour und perhaps learning to appreciate fine wines und not gulp them, take time to eat real SLOW food (did roast pork for lunch und all the trims - followed by Swiss style Apfeltorte ... )

All this would help... und of course -- if we teach und remind to COAST all the time .. then this become the norm to aspire to - nicht?




We do find that with COAST comes driving at safe speed .. und in hazardous area ist usually bubbling below the lolly.

Why we think COAST focussed driving will be of greater benefit.

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

I think the best analogy would be learning to swim.
If you live near water, it makes no difference weather you swim or not. If you live ON water, it is essential, and prefereable that you do it well!

Our eldest showed little inclination to LEARN to swim, until he actually WANTED to learn.
Compulsory anything is counter productive unless it can be shown it is a great idea.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Sorry Ernest, but I don't think the swimming analogy is a particularly good one. Many people that professionally live on the water e.g. Merchant Navy do not know how to swim, and have almost no inclination to learn, a mindset that has existed since commercial shipping first started. The reasoning is simple: if you are in the water, then it is probably because your ship is sinking, and if you didn't get into a lifeboat immediately then you are dead anyway or soon will be, either though drowning, sharks, being dashed on the rocks, or hypothermia. The theory is that rather than knowing how to swim and dragging out out for hours or days even, with death inevitable, it is easier to drown quickly and get it over with!

There will allways be non conformists. However govenment and rules can determin how many and how much havoc they cause. If there are too many rules there will be more non-conformists..... more people driving on cloned plates to avoid congestion charging and fines.

By adding trafpol you can reduce the havolc they cause.
by reducing trafpol they will do as they please.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Hear hear!

I know it sounds like family patting family on back - but I have to say Wildy .. nice reply. Ta Liebchen

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

But that's exactly it - nobody forces you to learn how to swim before you put to sea - not even the navy, and yet the risk is there!
I fell overboard aged three, stepping between boat and shore, was never afraid of water, wading out until I had my head tipped back to breathe - but I was 12 years old before I finally learned to swim - because I wanted to.
Presently, nobody will ever take extra tuition for their driving - unless they want to. Instead, the government advocates driving by numbers. Well I have seen paintings done by numbers, and they always lack the subtleties like graduated tones etc.!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I think the problem is that in any population there is a gaussian distribution of behaviour. Ie the closer you get to the extreme is were the non-conformists live. The 85th percentile is there. And that is where our best and safest drivers are as well as the worst. Reasonable establishments accept that that is so and work towards structures that make the best of this and reduce the worst effects.

The more recent trend is towards increasing authoritarianism and fascism. Establishments are no longer composed of reasonable persons and cannot tolerate this diversity,seeking micro-control and increasingly oppressive enforcement of rules to suppress deviation. That is the way we are headed now.

Ok - I need Prof Beard to comment on this as I am way out of my depth as a physicist commenting on socio-economic ideals and political motivations (gimme spherical geometry and Gauss any day..!)

As I was, just a few minutes ago, preparing the Guv'nor's evening milky coffee, one of those 'moments of pure clarity' occurred to me about the true nature of Nu Labia and its 'vision' for the UK.

They are applying Thatcherite economical strategies, but focussed on the taxation briefs and de-Nationalisation, side-by-side with the social mores of the ultimate Socialist constraints of Maoism, Stalinism and Catholicism - those that place the 'ordinary person' in a morass of contradictory 'laws' such that they are all 'transgressors/sinners' whose only salvation is the benevolence of their governing superiors. Every person in this country has punitive measures waiting for them and it is only a matter of time before they are 'caught out'.

Please comment, however harshly - this was truly a 'flash of inspiration' that has taken me nearly an hour to put into script.

I have, professionally, to 'go' with 'hunches' and this was so clear that I felt I had to post it...

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Aquila



Licat volare si super tergum aquila volat...

"It isn't rules that keep us safe", no its sticking to the rules that keep us safe, not the rules been there.

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Why not put on speed limiters we have the technology only idiots break the speed limit