Safe Speed Forums

I always though of it as pure common sense. Which presumably is why in the mad world of UK Traffic regulations it isn't a concept.

At sea it is very simple - a Supertanker takes a few miles to stop or turn, it doesn't matter at all who is approaching from the correct side, both parties should make attempts to avoid collision, where there is a mismatch in agility, the emphasis on the most maneuverable to take the avoiding action. It isn't a size thing either, as a large motorboat can change direction better than a small sailing both or large rowing boat.

I would say that the trucker and the car driver were both partly to blame. Left hookers have appauling blindspot problems, which is no excuse I know, but if the car driver was aware of something approching from his left he should have been taking appropriate action. If the car driver had been aware of an approching lorry (and if really switched on an approching left hooker - yes you CAN tell from the outside), then whether it was his legal duty or not, he should have taken defensive action.

Like Paul said, if I'm on a motorway and approching a slip road I'm already looking along the slip if possible and making judgements as to whether or not I need to take defensive action no matter what lane I'm in. If there's clearly nothing there then I ignore the slip and carry on driving as normal, but if there is something there then I'll react - whether it be staying put, changing lanes or altering my speed. It works for all parties involved - I avoid a stressful and potentially dangerous situation before it's even developed and the traffic joining has a much easier time of it. This kind of behaviour also helps to prevent bunching and unneccesary slowing of the traffic flow.

As for left hookers being banned from UK roads - not sure on that one. I can see the reasoning for it, but then by the same logic you could ban most large vehicles from the road. A right hooker has exactly the same problem when attempting to return to L1 after overtaking for instance. The more reasonable approach would be to clearly mark the vehicle to allert drivers that it's a left hand drive, and then sensible and consise education.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

I don't think left hookers are so hard to spot they need a specific warning label. To me foreign plates on the back of the trailer mean I can assume it's almost certainly a left hooker, likewise phone/fax numbers for offices in European cities and sign writing that isn't in English. And of course, if there's only one person in the cab and they're sitting on the left...

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

If its approaching along a motorway slip road then there's every chance that you wouldn't be able to see the numebr plates or the driver (wherever he's sat) It was just an alternative to banning them from the UK...

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Also, there is a lot of trailer swapping goes on whereby a RHD British truck is pulling a foreign trailer. Of course they should still be displaying a British plate at the rear of the trailer but some times it can be just wrote on or sometimes not there at all, but the foreign plate is still visable. Plus there are a number of British firms with foreign depots to confuse matters futher. Lastly their is also a small propotion of British operated, British registered left-hookers, presumably those which are dedicated to continental work. Therefore something which readily identifies a LHD is a good thing IMO. If in doubt I can usually tell by it's mirror arrangement but Joe Public probably won't.

Sixy and Capri, all true but I think probably more the exceptions rather than the norm. In any event, I wasn't suggesting that sign writing etc. will indicate beyond doubt that it's a left hooker. Apologies if I made it sound like that - not intentional because obviously it's not 100% for the various reasons you gave. But when you can see these details, which I expect is more often than not, you know that it's likely to be a left hooker, and what's more it doesn't hurt to assume it is a left hooker and drive accordingly. It costs nothing to do this and find out later it was an RHD after all. Better still, though - treat all artics with healthy respect regardless of what's written on them or where the plates say it comes from. Far simpler, and maybe even simple enough to get across to the eejits I regularly see diving up the inside of Waitrose wagons on roundabouts in the Bracknell area.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to nitpick - I knew what you were getting at, and your right - the majority are easy to spot.


I originally thought that better signing might help the eejits out, but thinking again they may just get the idea that "Oh it's a right-hand drive one, he must have seen me / be able to avoid me / shrink to the size of a Smart car". Therefore just sending the message out to give all trucks plenty of space maybe more sensible.

I take a simple view - aproaching an on ramp, i expect to move right, and unless motorway is full do so.If i cant, i treat every person joining motorway as a blind idiot who has not and will not see me and be prepared to let them in. Not a question of right of way - it's a question of a now basic way of life on UK roads ----
"Better to be a live coward, not taking your right of way, than a dead hero ".
Sorry about accident, stackmonkey, hope parents are ok.
As some here said - foreign trucks are now a real menace on uk roads. About time our magnificent govt decided that all loads from continent be on tractor units and once in UK be hauled by RHD units ( preferably by uk drivers with uk licences)
Now that would reduce motorway accidents. (Possibly wouldn't make money, but tone could find ways to make it pay)

cue instant ban for all English trucks/cars/busses on the continent.

And THAT'S the key. My attitude is this:

1) Its bigger than me - its going to squash me so I'll stay well out of the way.
2) (S)He's driving that for a living, not for fun. How would I like it if someone came into my office and started throwing my papers around? - if I can do something to make his / her life easier then I will. Its basic common sense and courtesy.

Capri2.8i - you can tell by mirror arrangement if you know what you're looking for. A left hooker will usually have a downward facing mirror above the right hand door and an extra blind-spot mirror on the same side. (have a look next time you get chance to get close to a lorry - a right hooker will have the same mirrors but on the other side of the cab.) But I do agree that joe public wouldn't have a clue or be paying enough attention to see the difference anyway.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

I'd like to put this slightly differently...

I don't give a damn if a truck is left hand drive or right hand drive.

It's my job to stay out of their way regardless.

[I know others have said similar things, and I'm sure we agree, I just wanted to make it crystal clear]

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Amen to that!

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

An imminent collision might only become apparent seconds before impact, especially if road conditions are busy and traffic isn't leaving a 2 second gap. The car was said to be a Fiesta, of which there are numerous lower power versions available.

Assuming the car was fairly low powered there could well not have been the time to accelerate away from the impending danger, as it would likely have required changing down a gear. Say 0.5 sec to see potential collision, 2 sec to execute gearchange, 3 sec to gain enough speed to avoid collision = 5.5sec in total. In this length of timeframe a seemingly innocent lorry waiting to merge could become a lorry giving you a shunt.

OK, the car driver could have been more aware of the merging traffic and their car's abilities but it was also said that this was a new (to them) car.

that's a damn slow gear change you're talking about.
However, there is another option:
Let's see, there's a truck on the slip road. Given our current speeds I estimate that I'll still be beside him as he's ready to pull on. Due to the traffic I can't change lanes and my car is gutless so I can't accelerate past him. What could I possibly do??? Oh right, you're not allowed to slow down, are you?

I agree totally about slowing down to let the lorry in, assuming it can be seen in time. Like others have said, I would also consider such a maneuvre as more advanced/defencive driving as it would be going beyond the legal requirements.

That time for the gearchange includes the time to realise that a gearchange is called for (can take a while, especially in an car you're not familiar with)

The car got hit from left/rear meaning the lorry was partially behind the car, likely in their blind spot. Braking at this point or slightly earlier will only make the situation worse. Not much was said about the speeds of either vehicle so they could both be slowing down/speeding up/maintaining constant speed, which will all have an impact on collision avoidance strategies.

I can't think of a single slip road (certainly not on motorways I use regularly) where visibility is so poor that you wouldn't be able to see a 55ft artic approaching in plenty of time to react. The answer as johnsher said would be to SLOW DOWN to create enough space. The fact remains that if the car driver had been paying proper attention and had the correct education to be able to deal with the situation then the collision would never have happened.

IMHO almost any crash scenario can be avoided by EITHER party whether legally at fault or not.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

I agree. That is why, in my opinion (in a two vehicle colision), combined responsibility of both drivers can be anything up to 200% (i.e. the collision could have been avoided by either driver alone taking appropriate action) whereas combined legal liability must necessarily add up to 100%.

Yeah, basically if it's got lots of mirrors on the right-hand side then it will be one, if I'm right their should be rearview, wide-angled, kerb and hopefully a couple of blind spot one. Perhaps the additional mirrors should be made a legal requirement to drive a LHD truck in this country. Afterall we have to carry warning triangles and the like to motor abroad. I've also seen a few foreign trucks with a convex(or concave?) passenger side windows, much like some buses have(at the rear) in order to see downwards, behind and below the passenger door.

I look at it this way. If the truck driver makes a mistake, it is far harder for him to correct a mistake then it is for a car driver. I truck cannot meaningfully accelerate in the immediate term, they are preumably more unpredictable under heavy braking and the certainly can't swerve. All of which a car can do. Therefore even if the trucker is entirely culpable, I am often in a much better position to take avoiding action then he or she is.

Don't quote me on this, but I think that's a standard mirror configuration for the passanger side of any lorry.

Depending on the load, you CAN'T brake suddenly. For instance, if you were carrying sheet metal on a flatbed and you anchored on, you'd probably be killed by the load shooting forward through the back of the cab...

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Absolutely! Common sense should take preference over "rights"... Many many years ago I was told a little poem by one of my sailing instructors vis-a-vis the "ColRegs"...

Here lies the body of Harold Day
who insisted on his Right of Way

He was right, dead right as he sailed along
but he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev