Safe Speed Forums

Ah! so it is.

I'm afraid the fallacy lies in your argument.

First, what Ian (I think) said, and I agreed with, is this: if it is necessary to use all available power in order to complete the overtake safely, then there is little or no safety margin (for example to accommodate a momentary loss of power).

This must apply regardless of the performance characteristics of the individual vehicle.

Having correctly judged that a reasonable safety margin exists, the overtake can be executed. Then the question is whether, in execution, to use maximum power available or something less. That is where the performance of the vehicle comes into play. In a lower perfomance car, it may well be better to use all available power to reduce TED. In a higher performance car, it is probably better to keep some in reserve: (a) so as not to build too great a speed differential; and (b) to moderate the acceleration because, if something unexpected does happen during the acceleration phase, the reaction time lag will produce a higher speed differential at a higher rate of accleration and so reduce the ability to take avoiding action.

The highway code has quite a long section on overtaking, possibly because it is a comparatively or inherently risky operation. My thoughts on this are straightforward, Sam. When I am thinking of overtaking, I think about what it will buy me in terms of time and risk. I do not overtake unless a) I am short of time or the vehicle in front is annoyingly slow and b) overtaking will save me a lot of time and c) the manoeuvre has a very low risk. If any of these conditions don’t exist, I turn on the wireless and stay where I am. I wouldn’t even raise an eyebrow about a small speeding violation making the move – even a spoilsport like me has to draw the line somewhere.

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I stole this .sig

How about if you are on a motorbike following a farm tractor that is towing a muck waggon. I usualy try and get past these as soon as I can.

Also horse boxes when the horse is having a p*ss. Not the sort of thing you want when you have an open face helmet....

And don't get me started on Skip waggons that are shedding brick-ends from an un-secured load.

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Speed camera policy Kills

Nah, it's just another misunderstanding - mine this time. Sorry.

Your previous post struck a loud chord with me about some advice I received many years ago. I thought you were repeating it, but now I see that you weren't.

Tha bad advice was a false interpretation of the idea: "always keep something in reserve". This was applied to mean never use full throttle when overtaking because at some point more acceleration may be needed.

The right advice is: always maintain a margin for error. But it does not extend to using less than full throttle to overtake in an underpowered vehicle.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

In a car, you are basically taking over the wrong lane for a long time when you pass. On a bike, you’re not taking over the whole lane, and the ‘rocket like’ acceleration of a big bike means the manoeuvre is over almost before it starts! But you could still get swotted pretty easy, so it’s a different kettle of fish.

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I stole this .sig

That's just about the most sensible posting you've ever made on this forum.

Cheers
Peter

Being a "newbie", be gentle on me

Overtaking should be stress-free. Providing I use the following rules:-

i) Is it worth overtaking i.e. if there are 7 cars and 2 wagons in front, and I am 3 miles from my destination then I can't see the point.
ii) Forward planning. Looking "outside the box". Approaching a left-hander, move the car left for better visibility and vice-versa for a right-hander. Also look through the following car's windscreen to spot oncoming traffic. If on an unfamiliar stretch of road that appears straight, drop back from the car in front, move right, and increase your "visibility splay".
iii) Can I return to the left hand lane, after completing the 'take, without touching the brakes?
iv) If there is oncoming traffic, can I complete the 'take without causing them a sense of "peril"?
v) Correct gear
vi) Gas it to minimise "time exposed to danger"

Of course points i to iv should be carried out whilst recognising road conditions / signs / markings.

Cheers

Simon

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Safe yet Swift.

Very true, but the rocket like acceleration also means you are safely past the hazardous condition in the quickest possible time. This would minimise the opportunity of the cage driver to swerve into your path. I also find a quick flash on my "overtaking" headlamp flasher to be benificial to alert the cage driver before I start going past them (That's if the thunderous V-Twin roar hasn't already advised them of my presence). If you have correctly observed all of the hazards, that also minimisises the risk.

Slightly off topic.... I stand to be corrected by any of the police officers here, but most KSI accidents on Motorcycles are single vehicle, and commonly occur on bends. This is normally caused by panic braking due to incorrectly reading the road and having far to high an approach speed. The panic braking causes the bike to stand up and head straight for the nearest hedge.

Please also note the disparaging term "cage" - this is used in the context of the car driver who is warm and snug in his/her cage, and totally oblivious of the surrounding road users. Of course, they can spare attention to tune the radio, fiddle with the CD Player, air conditioning, GPS sat nav, pick their nose, eat a packet of crisps or use their mobile. Its just the environment outside of the cage they cannot attend to.

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"Are you sh**ing me?"
"John Spartan, you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute."

Blademan,

Not complaining about this, just commenting.............

Why are you "blademan" if you ride a V-twin??

Simon

PS

Having passed me Direct Access 2 yrs ago, I'd love to ride either. The insurance is fooking appalling though!

S

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Safe yet Swift.

"Blademan" - it's nothing to do with bike. Many years ago, I was a fishmonger, and very handy with a knife - someone called me Blade Man on the CB, and it stuck as my handle. The "sw" are my initials, as I use the same screen name for everything on the net. Not surprisingly, the name Blademan its somewhat over subscribed!

Yep the insurance is bad enough for me as well, and I have been riding for 10 years (I have a Suzuki TL1000S by the way). Good luck with your riding, you don't have to have a thumping great bike to have a good time!

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"Are you sh**ing me?"
"John Spartan, you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute."

V-Twins Rule

This is what I ride.

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Speed camera policy Kills

Me too

I think my advanced examiner put it very well regarding exceeding the speed limit while overtaking; he said

"Don't worry if you exceed the speed limit while conducting an overtake - I wont be looking at my speedometer during the manoeuvre - and neither should you!"

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Bill

All great journeys begin with a single step

MrsMiggins - join at www.tlplanet.com if you haven't already - fantastic TL resource, and there is a UK section.
Here's mine, and V-Twins definately rule

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"Are you sh**ing me?"
"John Spartan, you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute."

I agree with you, and basingwerk for once. But will the hidden scammer with the laser see the distinction?

Probably not, but if you are on a bike, pull a minging wheelie past him and he won't be able to read your number plate



That will get basingwerk going!

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"Are you sh**ing me?"
"John Spartan, you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute."

Back to Fiat Pandas - if you attempt to overtake someone in a Panda (or a 2CV) they will probably accelerate when they realise what vehicle it is. Having driven both I soon learnt that many other drivers treat you like a tractor - something to get past ASAP. With your foot to the floor you will be going nowhere and will have to drop back. I used to have the same problem with a Triumph Herald 1200 convertible, many moons ago (not lack of street cred - just a complete lack of power!).