Safe Speed Forums

Though I'd go out on a limb here... I've been debating this with myself for some time, but what do people think of the idea that ll motorways being variable speed limit? By that I mean its inherantly unlimited, and only limited by signs a la M25. For example, in the clear at 4am Monday morning, drive like hell. Rain, fog, 5pm friday, 40mph.

How about limits per lane? Though I suspect that could go wrong. My theory was that it would stop '2mph-faster overtakers' and get rid of 'middle-laners'. Perhaps a minimum-per-lane limit as apposed to a max? eg L1 <60, L2 60-80, L3 >75 Though that opens the way to a whole stream of scamera abuse....

Any suggetions? I'm pretty much speaking whats in my head, not thought this through. Feel free to ridicule.

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uzz

Variable limits are a nice idea in theory, the main problem would be getting the infrastructure in place to ensure that they were operated sensibly - no instances of '50' signs being left on for 36 hours after 10 minutes' drizzle, etc. I think a lot of people would agree that the maximum limit on the motorway should be raised - perhaps variable limits is a way to do this safely. Think they're still discussing some kind of 80/50 proposal (80 in dry, 50 in wet), but apparently nothing will happen for five years.

I don't know that it's a good idea to have motorways completely unlimited at any time, even with the best possible conditions. It 'works' in Germany but their driving test is a lot more stringent (if we believe Mad Moggie!) and also includes a mandatory autobahn drive. Having said that, completely unlimited would end the obsession with numerical speed and help drivers concentrate on setting a safe speed for the conditions. So who knows!?



Ugh, no. The 'sensible' speed for any given lane at any given time is far too dependant on so many factors. Also, your proposed system here means that anyone who wants to drive at 85mph will have to remain permanently stuck in the outside lane - effectively acting as a speed limiter - no one can undertake them (the other lanes have max speed limits), and no one can overtake them because they're in the outside lane.

And then what about motorways with 2 lanes each way, or 4 or more? The number of speed limits to memorise would get ridiculous very quickly.

The system we have now where you should drive in the lane as far to the left as you can is like that because it works (I presume) - provided drivers are sensible, it's the best way to get traffic of different speeds all to flow smoothly.

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

I think this is part of what I call: "the speed limit trap". This is the illusion that getting the speed limit right will help drivers to set a safe speed according to the conditions. More on:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/speedlimits.html

I admit that there might be exceptions, and I'm keen to see speed limits set towards the low end of the maximum safe speed on most road types to provide strong guidance to inexperienced drivers.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

k, I've been messing around with the "quote" button for ages and have given up... How are you supposed to insert into a double quote?

Anyway, as you say, I didn't really think my minimum idea was remotely workable... was just something to throw in the pot if you see. Perhaps some sort of "middle lane hog" camera needs inventing?

Also, points about leaving variable limits on for hours also valid, but not sure how it works on m25? Or are they just set at 40 all the time for a gag?

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uzz

Good post Mike!

Believe the States had one limit per lane once upon a time - not sure if some States still have this as believe system has changed.

Definitely would not want to see this here - we have enough problems keeping lane discipline as it is. Would want to see speed limits retained on motorways here - 80mph should be maximum if we were to increase it - if only to bring in lime with EU.

Germany does indeed have much tougher L-test than we have, and it does include motorway drive on the L-test and lessons must include a night drive - and you can find details of their test on-line. As you know - Mad Mog's wife is my first cousin. She is half Swiss and brought up in Switzerland. She was at University in Germany when she learnt how to drive.

Some a/bahn are variable from 50mph stretches to 80mph to unlimited - a bit like the M25. Competent drivers should be able to see speed limit signs

Best to just type in the code yourself. Something like this - [ quote = "uzziel"][ quote = "Gatsobait"]blahblahblah[ / quote]yadda yadda yadda[ / quote] - but without any spaces in the bracketed sections ends up looking like this:
And by the way, on the M25 40mph signs tend to be a premanent fixture of rush hour traffic. They also tend to be hugely optimistic, as getting to 20 is often an achievment.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Only a nasty old cynic would suggest that the real reason for the variable speed limits on the M25 is an excuse to put scameras on the motorway
They're supposed to be there to ease congestion - the theory being that slowing the traffic behind down allows the blockage ahead time to clear before the traffic behind reaches it. Where this falls down is that the traffic behind is not a few miles back, but right there. When you have a constant stream of traffic you have one vehicle passing a fixed point roughly every 2 seconds per lane (assuming everybody sticks to the 2-second rule, but this is beside the point) regardless of the speed, so the traffic behind will really reach the blockage in 2 seconds, not several minutes. Besides, forcing people to drive at a speed substantially lower than they desire to leads to bunching - which exacerbates the problem.
Last year, driving back from Germany, I hit the M25 about midday on a Tuesday and, from where the variable limits started to where they ended, the traffic was stop-start all the way. The previous day, on a Monday morning, I was driving on the autobahns around Frankfurt and Bonn - where the traffic was arguably heavier than on the M25, but everything just kept moving and I didn't have to slow down once for the traffic.

Regards
Peter

[quote="Pete317"]Only a nasty old cynic would suggest that the real reason for the variable speed limits on the M25 is an excuse to put scameras on the motorway
They're supposed to be there to ease congestion - >>

If you want to ease conjestion, the simple method would be to restrict Trucks to the inside lane only as they do mainly abroad. That way you only restrict one lane to 56 MPH.

The biggest problem on m/ways is on hill climbs as trucks speed reduces to 40 to 50 mph and this is in 2 lanes leaving only one lane available for flow of traffic. However all cars are trying to use it, which is why it also fills up.

Middle lane drivers, they make my blood boil. But in fairness nobody has undergone any m/way training so they do not understand how a M/way works.

Bizzare really if you consider the death rate on our M/ways the Government do not introdue compulsary training.

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Steve

Its nice to look at the German unlimited Autobahn system but you need to consider the bigger picture. Yes, their test is more stringent than ours but their are other factors as well.
My experices of driving in Germany (4 years in the forces) is that their approach is much more authoritarian and disciplined than ours. The law is pretty much black and white in most cases, and covers jaywalking quite nicely as well - as my mother found out when she tried to cross a road when the little man was showing red, a large German chap grapped her by the arm and scolded her to wait for the green man lol



Perhaps this is because lane discipline is much better than in the UK, you don't get the ridiculous ouside lane conga full of analy retentive Brits all thinking (puts on Gordon Brittas style nasal voice)
"If I move over the guy behind will just take my place so I'll stay out here" or,
"I'm doing X mph, that bloke behind me shouldn't need to go any faster" or,
"If this guy in front would get out of the way I could go faster" etc etc.

And finally, their Polizei are much more officious than ours, once they've decided to book you don't argue the toss with them, you won't win and just end up paying a bigger fine than you started with. Whilst holdidaying in the Black Forest we saw a police car pull over a British registered Merc into the layby where we were resting. The cops started writing out a ticket and the guy started reasoning (arguing) with him like he probably would back home. We gestured to him to shut up (mouthing NO, and SHUSH and pinching our lips together with our fingers) but he kept going, and the cop kept tearing strips off his ticket pad indicating the fine was incresing all the time

Did you also know that the Germans have bylaws that would have us Brits jumping up and down screaming 'civil liberties infringements' and 'nanny state'. They cover things like when you cannot hang out your washing, and but your dustbins out. Totally beside the point I know, but it illustrates the cultural differences that makes cherry picking ideal rules and regualtions from another countries statute books a risky business.

Rigpig - absolutely correct.

German L-Test is quite rigid and prescribed. Everything from PSL to COAST is laid down in clinical and prescribed manner. You fail the test if you do not PSL and MSM in the prescribed way. Same goes for attitude - because that is also assessed - though this can of course change once they have the licence! There was one thread on here about "bad passengers!" You could not be a "bad passenger" when out with my wife, or any member of her family who trained in Germany and Switzerland. Their driving is quite clinical and a bit like watching an artist at work

Poor lane discipline to Germans is height of bad manners and they do indeed use their CCTV footage of motorway driving to prosecute for this "careless" driving standard and the more serious charge of tailgating. Coffee bean and other gestures? If the Polizei see you do this - you get caution. As Rigpig says - if you argue the toss - they prosecute all the harder and you could get whopping fine for it. The Swiss and Austrians are just as tough! (Though - it does help if you speak the language )

J-walking? Well, a 14 year old In Gear went to visit his cousins in Switzerland. He stepped off the kerb - he says he just placed one foot on the roadway whilst the red man was showing. He got a severe ticking off and his parents were fined for it! The Swiss cousins he was with at the time say they got into real bother from their own parents for "not looking after him properly"

Other laws in Germany, Switzerland and Austria: you cannot wash your car nor mow your lawn in early Sunday afternoon, hang out your washing, wheel out your dustbin for collection unless at prescribed times - as you have "moral obligation not to disturb the peace for your neighbours."

Better the devil you know!

We know Germany doesn't have a better overall safety record than the UK, despite their more stringent test. Does the tougher test also lead to a lower rate of participation in driving, I wonder?

Regards,

Peter

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

They are beating us hollow in terms of rate of improvement. Fatalities in Germany have dropped by over 25% in the last 5 years while ours have been static at best. At this rate they will overtake us in 2007 (from memory - I worked it out last year and can't find the spreadsheet)

That tougher driving test is feeding their culture while "speed kills" nonsense is damaging ours.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Don't think so, however in my experience it, the more stringent enforcemnt of clearly defined regualtions makes them more respectful towards the rules and each other.

The level of driving participation is an important point, as I approach this subject not as a driving nut but as a libertarian who values the freedom and empowerment given by private motor transport.

If harder tests don't lead to lower participation, then there may be a strong case for them. If they do lead to lower participation it needs to be questioned whether they are worthwhile.

And don't forget that, despite all the regulation and testing, Germany currently has a worse road safety record than the UK.

Regards,

Peter

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

That may be true, but driving there is (IMHO) a more pleasurable experience because the peple are more courteous and less anal towards other road users.

Ah yes, but you're not commuting on the wrong side of Dusseldorf...

Don't confuse holiday experiences with day-to-day reality.

Regards,

Peter

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Er, holiday experiences?

I lived in Germany in the Forces for 4.5 years and endorse what Rigpig has said. The standard of the driving lessons is much higher as well.
All over Germany you will find "Verkehrubungsplatz" driver training area, on these you can learn the basics of driving in the company of other learners only.
You don't need an instructor, just a qualified driver, there is usually a skid pan for use of the driving instructors to teach on and you can take a 15 year old on there. Used to cost 5 marks a day insurance and 4 marks an hour usage.

Another reason for not arguing with a continental cop is the pistol on his/her waistbelt.

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Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.

Still posing as my husband! (perhaps should be on the Advanced Driving thread?)

Does tougher test mean less drivers? No! Germans love the very idea of motoring and it is matter of pride. We do accuse the Fahrschulen of holding people back from test to make money. You can, as Drastabasti says drive with qualified driver of so many years' experience just like here - but you usually find you are more succesful with the L-test if you enter via Fahrschule - who will only enter you if they think you will pass - and that is why they make lots of money

Probation is two years - like here at present and if you commit even one offence as probationer - you have to have remedial training. If they think you have attitude problem - they revoke your licence and you face re-test. You are also prevented from driving Papa's Extra-Turbo charged Merc during this probationary period as well!

Germany's record is improving - their problem is same as UKs - higher proportion of crunches on the slower and town roads - more so in the East. Also the A/bahn - 2 lane affairs and slip roads are not that well designed on aggregate - yet despite the Turbo Rolfs - relatively safe - Liebchen.

Also the East accounts for larger proportion of their stats - Trabis (shudder!) now outlawed - but cobbles, pot holes from years of Stasi neglect takes time to fix! Also older East German ex-Party members were not trained to same high standards as their Western counterparts! Trabis were dangerous, but did not go that fast! (Have driven a Trabi - once and it stands out in my memory as most frightening experience - ever! It almost fell apart when I drove around a corner - admittedly I was a bit young and less experienced and maybe I did take it a bit too fast - but even so...)

France? High KSI rate - 6350 pa. and 6/10 automobilistes do not repsect either speed limits nor red lights . (Per L'Express/Figaro/Monde) Since 2002 they claim 18% reduction which they attribute to increased trafpol who are targetting the serious drink/drive and non-wearing of seatbelts! Unfortunately, they also claim their new 1000 sped cams are also contributing to this reduction

They have also increased their probationary period for new drivers to 3 years with two strikes and you are out, and they have introduced compulsory medical for all aged over 65 plus a driving assessment.

This may also be contributing towards their 18% drop - because it certainly cannot be down to speed cams alone!

Cheers

WildCat (posting under hubby's profile whilst he is out at 19th hole!) (And I have pick him up!)