And he told the forum: “At present technical limitations prohibit us from night-time enforcement. We did trial some kit several years ago but felt that its use would be detrimental to night-time drivers so did not adopt its use.
On one had he feels it is detrimental and then on the other he is planning to use it !
7:02
Welcome to the live webchat with Inspector Tony Quinn, of Cumbria police and Kevin Tea, manager, Cumbria Safety Camera Partnership
Monday November 9, 2009 7:02
7:02 They are here for two hours to answer your questions.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:02
7:03They will endeavour to answer as many questions as they can, as fully as they can.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:03
7:03Apologies in advance if, at the end of this session, your question/query has not been answered.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:03
7:03While safety/speed cameras are on the agenda, this session will only answer your broad questions about their use etc in Cumbria. It is hoped that a webchat dedicated solely to safety cameras - and getting into the real nitty gritty of their use - will be held early in the new year.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:03
7:03This is an interactive service. You can post up comments, ask questions, take part in various polls - or, if you wish, just sit back and watch.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:03
7:03All comments are moderated for legal purposes. We also reserve the right to edit, as necessary, any messages before release.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:03
7:03Any 'personal attack' messages will not be released. Please keep your questions and comments brief and to the point. Do not use foul or abusive language.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:03
7:03You said in an earlier webchat. . . why when you go to the police station the civilian staff are rude an very unhelpfull. We acted . . . We took notice of what you said and reviewed some of our practices and procedures in the Police Station. We have taken action to improve our practices and procedures when we have found poor service.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:03
7:03
In an earlier webchat . . . Simon said he was not happy with the way the Police spoke to him and dealt with the incident We acted on that . . . I [Insp Tony Quinn] rang Simon and discussed the incident with him. I met with Simon on two occasions and had other telephone conversations with him. Simon made a complaint which was recorded and investigated. I explained to Simon the powers the police had to deal with the situation and explained why we could not use the powers of arrest he thought we should have used. Simon was happy with the explanation and understood why the action had been taken. I arranged for Simon to meet with the Police Officer involved so each could see the other persons point of view. Simon understood a lot more about police powers and was happy in which his complaint was dealt with. He agreed that even though he was not happy with what happened on the night the police action taken had appeared to improve the situation he was ringing about.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:03
7:04
Adrian North asks: Can the safety camera proponents explain how speed cameras can be an effective preventative measure when collisions are predominantly caused by tired drivers, drunk drivers, inattentive drivers or inexperienced drivers? Surely the emphasis should be placed on reducing these factors rather than trying to control the maximum energy of the impacts once they occur? Would you support a mandatory probationary period for new drivers along the lines of the motorbike probation, where power output is limited? And what about fitting of tachographs to delivery vehicles and sales rep cars?
Monday November 9, 2009 7:04
7:10
Kevin Tea: All of the comments about causation factors raised by Adrian are true to an extent and do lead to accidents occurring. However, driving at excessive speed and other speed related behaviours figure prominently in the list of causation factors in Cumbria.
The safety camera vans have, however, caught other offences which are handed the police for prosecution for example double white lining, mobile phone use and driving with no seatbelt etc.
The safety camera vans on their own will not wholly solve all problems but it is still a useful and good tactic to use to try and prevent accidents which has proven successful.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:10
7:14
Kevin Tea: To cover Adrian's last point, we have never chanted the speed kills mantra and believe that bad driving leads to collisions. However, speed does have an effect on the aftermath of a collision.
Personally I believe we should look at probationary periods after people pass their test to cover issues such as speed, the number of passengers carried.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:14
7:15
News & Star: We are having a problem releasing the questions being submitted but we are working on it.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:15
7:16
[Comment From C.A. C.A. : ]
what is the point in sending info 2 wks later ? why not just have a traffic policeman there in the first place?
Monday November 9, 2009 7:16 C.A.
7:19
Insp Quinn: For some motoring offences by law the police have got to send a notice of intended prosecution within 14 days to the registered keeper. The purpose of this is to ensure the driver is aware he has committed an offence - on some occasions they may be unaware. One of these offences is speeding. If the registered owner or keeper does not receive the notice of intended prosecution within 14 days the case will be discontinued. On a number of occasions this procedure actually protects the motorist. It gives them a chance to remember the incident and respond accordingly.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:19
7:19
[Comment From C.A. C.A. : ]
Camera's are a distraction on all those that pass them and the effects on drivers are appalling - how can you justify their existance ?
Monday November 9, 2009 7:19 C.A.
7:20
Kevin Tea: By the use of cameras within Cumbria we have dramatically reduceed the number of people killed or seriously injured to the extent that in 2008 we had the lowest number of fatalities for more than 20 years. Statistics show that each time we change the safety camera strategy there are step changes downwards in KSI (killed and serious injury) casualties.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:20
7:21
[Comment From Alan Alan : ]
It appears a number of serious accidents occur during the evening/night. What percentage of their working time do the camera vans operate during these periods?
Monday November 9, 2009 7:21 Alan
7:22
Kevin Tea: At present technical limitations prohibit us from night-time enforcement. We did trial some kit several years ago but felt that its use would be detrimental to night-time drivers so did not adopt its use. We will be looking at new Truvelo cameras that have excellent night-time capabilities.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:22
7:23
[Comment From ronnie lawson ronnie lawson : ]
i would like to ask kevin tea about speed camera locations, in paticular 2 locations one at dalston rad in carlisle and one at scotland road in penrith he has in the past sent me statistics on these 2 locations and ther has been one accident at each location in the past ten years
Monday November 9, 2009 7:23 ronnie lawson
7:26
Kevin Tea: I think that Ronnie is questioning the use of the camera vans at these two locations. However, since the adoption of random roadwatch in 2007 we have found that the greater presence of the vans on the network leads to greater compliance, slower speeds and fewer collisions. These locations were originally identified as casualty hotspots and qualified for enforcement under the old DfT guidelines. Since we adopted random roadwatch we are free to operate wherever we wish or in answer to community concerns.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:26
7:26
[Comment From Pam Pam : ]
If the sites for cameras are those with high accident rates, please can you explain the reasoning for no longer publicising their locations and schedules on your website. Surely the more publicity about these blackspots the better - or is it mre about raising money?
Monday November 9, 2009 7:26 Pam
7:27
Kevin Tea: We discovered back in the early days that people used the publication of the sites to manipulate the system. Once we were freed from DfT guidelines in 2007 we abandoned their use.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:27
7:28 Monday November 9, 2009 7:28 POLL :
Do you support the use of safety cameras in Cumbria?
Yes
( 42% )
No
( 58% )
7:29
[Comment From Linda Mellor Linda Mellor : ]
Hi Kevin, I am fed up with speeding drivers in and around Penrith. So many people think the 30mph limit doesn't apply to them. Are there any plans for more safety cameras in Penrith?
Monday November 9, 2009 7:29 Linda Mellor
7:31
Kevin Tea: We are limited to the amount of enforcement we can carry out in some urban environments because of the size of our vans. It is difficult to find safe locations where the vans will not stick out into the road and cause a hazard to passing motorists. If it is raised as a community issue the local community policing team will go out with a handheld radar and can also deal with the issue.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:31
7:32
[Comment From ronnie lawson ronnie lawson : ]
i agree with pam a few weeks ago the camera van was at dalston road twice in one week
Monday November 9, 2009 7:32 ronnie lawson
7:33
[Comment From Adam Bloom Adam Bloom : ]
Will covering up my license plate and or driving in costume help me avoid fines from these pesky cameras you speak of?
Monday November 9, 2009 7:33 Adam Bloom
7:34
Insp Quinn: Covering up the licence plate obviously would mean people could not read the number however, you would be committing offences under the Construction and Use of Motor Vehices regulations and excise offences and possibly offences of police obstruction. In view of these offences it may be easier just to pay a fixed penalty ticket.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:34
7:36
Bill Barnes says: I don't object to the cameras, I think there should be more. However, I was logged doing 36mph in a 30 zone and paid the fixed penalty. However I felt I would like to go to court and plead for leniency and perhaps no points. The penalty notice however threatened that if I dared to go to court I would probably be fined more and have extra point on my licence. I felt I had no choice but to pay but having driven for fifty years without a single point on my licence I felt badly treated. Common criminals have the right to plead their case at court without these threats so I asked the police to show me evidence that indeed fines and points were heavier for anyone who went to court. I used the FOI Act to do this but it was only after I complained to the FOI ombudsman that I got a reply outside the mandatory time limit. This reply was to the effect that they did not have any information and I suggest therefore that to threaten drivers in this way is out of order and should be stopped.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:36
7:37
Kevin Tea: Bill, we have now introduced speed awareness courses whereby people who are caught within a specific threshold can take a course and not receive any points on their licence. I understand this is no consolation to you but it shows that we are looking at more ways of dealing with this problem than just pure enforcement.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:37
7:38
[Comment From Michelle Dunning Michelle Dunning : ]
i can not understand how people can complain about a speed camera going to a area more than once, im sure they would be the first to complain if someone went speeding past their house. i have lost count of the number of times i have been overtaken in a 30mph zone only to catch up with them at the next junction, when will they realise they dont get there any quicker they just use more fuel in the proccess and put lives in danger.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:38 Michelle Dunning
7:38
Ben Hobson says: I put it to Mr Tea that his so called safety cameras are actually in fact speed cameras and would ask him to prove to the Cumbrian public that his cameras sitting on straight bits of road (Distington bypass ) save lives. As far as im aware there have not been that many accidents on the new bypass and really all his vans are doing is raking in a vast amount of money. Speed cameras don't save lives they never have and never will. What they do is cause many motorists to jam on their brakes and more than likely cause more trouble than they are meant to be preventing. It's only rip off Britain that uses this stealth tax hidden under the banner of safety cameras. I recently spent 10 days touring Europe in a car - 2500 miles and I never saw a single speed camera van or radar gun.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:38
7:40
Kevin Tea: Since 2007 when we introduced random roadwatch the presence of our vehicles slows the speeders down. We were under some pressure to install static cameras on the bypass and remove the cameras from Howgate but we decided against this preferring to use mobile vans instead.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:40
7:42
[Comment From Pam Pam : ]
" Kevin Tea: We discovered back in the early days that people used the publication of the sites to manipulate the system. Once we were freed from DfT guidelines in 2007 we abandoned their use. " Sorry I don't understand how the system could be manipulated. Surely, there's either a speeding car or there isn't !!??
Monday November 9, 2009 7:42 Pam
7:43
Kevin Tea: The manipulation is called camera surfing and it involves drivers who know where the vans are operating because of published data, slowing down in the vicinity of the site and then speeding up afterwards.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:43
7:43
[Comment From ronnie lawson ronnie lawson : ]
to reply to michelle the road in qustion has no houses on its seems its a good place to trap speeding drivers to make some money
Monday November 9, 2009 7:43 ronnie lawson
7:44
[Comment From Steve Steve : ]
Michelle, the real issue is with people safely driving to the conditions on motorways and quality dual carriageways, not speed past houses; why have so many cameras on the former? Speed cameras allow joyriders and boyracers to flourish - in comparison to using traffic police anyway - would Kevin and Ins Quinn agree?
Monday November 9, 2009 7:44 Steve
7:45
Kevin Tea: In 2003 the M6 was the worst road in Cumbria for KSIs with 15 dead and 44 seriously injured. Because of this we got special dispensation from the DfT to operate on the over bridges and continue to do so to keep the downward trend in check.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:45
7:45
News & Star: Anyone got any general policing questions?
Monday November 9, 2009 7:45
7:47
[Comment From John S John S : ]
About the comment from C.A. When ever I see a speed camera van everyone slows down to a proper speed, drivers stop using mobile phones and other drivers stop following to close, or driving in an aggressive way, can't complain about that
Monday November 9, 2009 7:47 John S
7:48
[Comment From john john : ]
I have noticed on the M6 the traffic can suddenly slow down at the sight of a camara on a bridge this can cause a danger to all drivers. and whats the point the cars generaly revert back to their higher speed as soon as they are out of range. surely this can only be to make money would it not be better if more time was spent catching the young wiz kids tearing about carlisle at night
Monday November 9, 2009 7:48 john
7:50
Kevin Tea: The drivers are a danger to themselves and others because they are either tailgating, speeding or lack the confidence in their own driving ability to keep to the speed limits or to drive within road conditions.
Insp Quinn: Drivers also slow down when they see marked police vehicles and marked Highways Agency vehicles. If we followed the argument of what John was saying we would have to remove all marked police vehicles from the motorway which would prevent the police from dealing with incidents.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:50
7:51
[Comment From Jan Jan : ]
In reply to michelle surely the use of safety cameras frees up police officers to carry out other duties such as directly targeting joy riders and other offences
Monday November 9, 2009 7:51 Jan
7:51
[Comment From Pete Wylie Pete Wylie : ]
To answer steve, cameras displace boy racers from roads the cameras are on. They go to other perhaps more dangerous roads, causing more carnage. Fortunately for the camera partnerships this means that because the collisions don't happen on their bits of road it means they can say that cameras have reduced serious crashes, when in fact all they have done is displace them, clever eh?
Monday November 9, 2009 7:51 Pete Wylie
7:52
Insp Quinn: Pete Wylie - Statistics show that displacement is not occurring as the KSIs are reducing to all-time lows.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:52
7:52
[Comment From C.A. C.A. : ]
Drivers bunch up at camera's to hide behind each other - this encourages tailgating !
Monday November 9, 2009 7:52 C.A.
7:54
[Comment From Pam Pam : ]
I don't wish to press the point but slowing down int he vicinity of the site is obviously a good thing and if it wasn't, well there'd be no point in any of the fixed cameras anymore. I agree that it isn't necessary for the scedhules but surely a list of 'blackspots' cannot harm anything.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:54 Pam
7:55
[Comment From Michelle Dunning Michelle Dunning : ]
in reply to ronnie, i appreciate i do not know the road in question but have you heard the term 'stop in a distance that you can see to be clear'? im sure the camera is there for a reason. if the camera is there surely it is doing a good thing for everyone? we all complain there are not enough bobbies on the beat but yet were complaining when the safety team are trying to do something to help all of us.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:55 Michelle Dunning
7:56
News & Star: We've hit another problem with comments. We're working on it...
Monday November 9, 2009 7:56
7:59
[Comment From C.A. C.A. : ]
He says: However, driving at excessive speed and other speed related behaviours figure prominently in the list of causation factors in Cumbria. - Where are these figuers ?
Monday November 9, 2009 7:59 C.A.
7:59
Kevin Tea: C.A. (7.12) - You can obtain figures from the Cumbria Road Safety partnership by simple request or via the Freedom of Information Act.
Monday November 9, 2009 7:59
8:01
[Comment From Michelle Dunning Michelle Dunning : ]
camera's would only be a distraction if you were doing something wrong in the first place, and while i do strongly agree learners should have a probationary period after they qualify i do feel they are not given the justice they deserve. most of the dangerous driving on the roads comes from drivers who feel they are good as they have nevr
Monday November 9, 2009 8:01 Michelle Dunning
8:01
[Comment From C.A. C.A. : ]
" By the use of cameras within Cumbria we have dramatically reduceed the number of people killed or seriously injured to the extent that in 2008" And how do you account for Regression To The Mean - then ?
Monday November 9, 2009 8:01 C.A.
8:03
Kevin Tea: C.A. (7.21) - A study was undertaken by the University of London three or four years ago that showed that while RTTM (regression to the mean) did occur it would not account for the levels of reduction in KSIs.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:03
8:04
[Comment From ronnie lawson ronnie lawson : ]
can kevin tea give me some stats on locations and speeding fines so that we can judge which roads catch the most over the speed limit
Monday November 9, 2009 8:04 ronnie lawson
8:05
Kevin Tea: Ronnie (7.24) - I can't give accurate figures off the top of my head but we concentrate on the A class high speed rural road network a lot of the time because this is where the majority of our fatalities and serious injuries occur. We also operate at other sites to maintain a presence.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:05
8:06
[Comment From Steve Steve : ]
Jan, traffic officer levels have fallen since cameras were rolled out, yet traffic levels have increased, Do you agree with that Kevin and Insp Quinn? This isn't what people would call 'freeing them up'.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:06 Steve
8:07
[Comment From Jan Jan : ]
Peter:I would suggest that the camera team do not just operate by themselves but share intelligence with the RPU units to make most effect of allpolice units
Monday November 9, 2009 8:07 Jan
8:08
Policing pledge
Monday November 9, 2009 8:08
8:09
Insp Quinn: The policing pledge states the police should have regular with the local communities so the police are aware of the community concerns and can deal with them. One of the purposes of this webchat is to reach groups who may not necessarily come into contact with the police. Does anybody have any comments on local issues?
Monday November 9, 2009 8:09
8:09
[Comment From C.A. C.A. : ]
Jan - the Police were open in showing that as the figures were good way back - the police were deliberately pulled away from the roads, then when the roads stopped improving the camera's were introduced as a 'one size fits all' solution ! The Police had no choice in the matter - many wish for Traffic Police to be re-introduced and I certainly approve
Monday November 9, 2009 8:09 C.A.
8:10
[Comment From Pete Wylie Pete Wylie : ]
Inspector quinn raises an interesting point about slowing down when you see marked police vehicles. but drivers don't do it anywhere near the degree they do when they see a camera, because the police value discretion. If you want to see how drivers instinctively react to cameras, have a look at the horrible sequence of skid marks at the cameras at witherslack on the A590. That can't be good for road safety.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:10 Pete Wylie
8:10
[Comment From C.A. C.A. : ]
The KSI going down are common for EVERY recession as people drive less, go less far and do shorter journeys !
Monday November 9, 2009 8:10 C.A.
8:11
Insp Quinn: We have seen reductions since 2003, which was a long time before the recession started.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:11
8:12
[Comment From Steve Steve : ]
To all who object to the Safety Cameras. It is really simple? Stick to the speed limits, and you will have no need to fear them. What would you rather do? Slow down, or have the Police knocking at your door ,informing you of an accident?
Monday November 9, 2009 8:12 Steve
8:13
[Comment From Steve Steve : ]
I consider myself well versed with the arguments against camera use, I would like to challenge you with them Kevin. Given that this forum is having such big problems with posts, it is possible to instead discuss this on a proper forum, such as safespeed.org.uk? (where you can normally find me)
Monday November 9, 2009 8:13 Steve
8:20
Insp Quinn: Due to the extremely technical nature of some of the questions, it is blatantly obvious that SafeSpeed campaigners are posting a number of questions.
This webchat was not specifically a debate about the rights and wrongs of speed cameras. It was about local community issues of which speeding may be one concern.
One of the issues on the west of the city that the community asked the police to deal with was speeding on two roads into the city. The safety camera van and the local policing team have dealt with the issues by education and enforcement and some measures have been taken to deploy speed indication devices.
Prior to this webchat SafeSpeed representatives were contacted and were offered an alternative forum in the future at which they could raise their concerns and issues. At this forum they could have discussions with other invited guests.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:20
8:20
[Comment From C.A. C.A. : ]
Ok will do but why have you not go them to hand !
Monday November 9, 2009 8:20 C.A.
8:20
[Comment From Jan Jan : ]
CA You can also find details of causation factors from the dft website. they have just released the casualty figures for 2008 it also includes causation factors, most ksi follow the same trend driver behaviour problem that includes excessive speed and following to close
Monday November 9, 2009 8:20 Jan
8:21
[Comment From Pete Wylie Pete Wylie : ]
I am in favour of having covert cameras catching risky speeders, ie those whose speed is excessive. the camera sitings in cumbria and elsewhere ensure that those whose speed has crept up in safe places are going to be prosecuted, eg Milnthorpe Road Kendal A591 Ings, A590 Witherslack, Shap Road Kendal. Why do you only target these safe places?
Monday November 9, 2009 8:21 Pete Wylie
8:22
Kevin Tea: In setting up the camera scheme in 2003 these sites were identified as having KSI clusters and speeds that satisfied DfT guidelines and they were adopted as hotspots for that reason.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:22
8:23
[Comment From Steve Steve : ]
I'm repeating my questions in the hope they get through: Kevin (7:45), don't the stats (RCGB2007/6) show that motorways are generally the safest type of roads for the volume of traffic on them (from memory: 19% traffic - 5% KSI rate).
Monday November 9, 2009 8:23 Steve
8:24
Kevin Tea: While I agree that elsewhere in the country motorways are generally considered among the safest roads, that was not the case in Cumbria and that is why we enforce it.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:24
8:25
[Comment From Jan Jan : ]
Steve, I would suggest that over the last few years that the intelligence has got better and that police officer now act a lot smarter. Making better use of resources is more efficient than putting more police officers on the gound with no information
Monday November 9, 2009 8:25 Jan
8:25
[Comment From Jan Jan : ]
CA KSI were reducing rapidly prior to the recession,
Monday November 9, 2009 8:25 Jan
8:26
[Comment From Pete Wylie Pete Wylie : ]
Traffic Cops still have as much speed enforcement to do, because they all really know that cameras have very limited effectiveness, and potentially dangerous psychological side effects on the quality of motoring. Effective speed enforcement (along with other enforcement) is still their responsibility, and one they take very seriously.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:26 Pete Wylie
8:27
[Comment From bob bob : ]
I drive in excess of 30,000 miles per annum and yet the wosrst cases of driving that I see are people below the limit...usually well below it. They fail to indicate, use mirrors and have poor lane discipline, usually cutting from one lane of large roundabouts to another and causing other drivers to swerve and brake,often the offending driver doesn't even realise they are doing this. How are speed cameras going to get rid of these dangerous drivers?
Monday November 9, 2009 8:27 bob
8:29
Kevin Tea: Speed cameras by their very definition are there to detect and enforce high speeds. I appreciate Bob's concern and frustration but there is nothing we can do about these motorists unless we see them driving in a particularly dangerous manner and put a call through for road policing support.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:29
8:29
[Comment From Pete Wylie Pete Wylie : ]
Kevin could also have a look at the online police forums where safety cameras are debated by those in the know, and almost universally despised. One police forum I frequent has a poll which is 35:5 against them.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:29 Pete Wylie
8:30
[Comment From C.A. C.A. : ]
have you stopped ?
Monday November 9, 2009 8:30 C.A.
8:30
News & Star: No. All is working properly.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:30
8:31
[Comment From Jan Jan : ]
Peter they are now safe places because the speed cameras have been operating on those sites since 2003
Monday November 9, 2009 8:31 Jan
8:32
[Comment From Mike Mike : ]
Inspector, having just looked at the Policing Pledge you posted, where are your monthly meetings, i'm not aware of any ?
Monday November 9, 2009 8:32 Mike
8:34
Insp Quinn: At the present time we are using the neighbourhood forums to do problem solving engagements. The next one in city west is at the Morton Neighbourhood Forum at 7pm on November 12. All of the public meetings are advertised on the website, on th eneighbourhood policing team newsletters. In the new year we will be holding our own community engagement meetings where we can discuss local issues and problems that the community wants us to deal with. At these meetings we will also update the community with what action we have taken to address their concerns. Website:
http://www.cumbria.police.ukMonday November 9, 2009 8:34
8:36
[Comment From George George : ]
Kevin/Tony What do you feel is mainly responsible for the reduction in road deaths throughout Cumbria in the last few years, I am aware all kinds of initiatives are taking place, including training to young drivers, camera vans etc.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:36 George
8:39
Kevin Tea: Safety cameras are just one tool in the battle to reduce KSIs. The Cumbria Road Safety Partnership carries out a substantial amount of educational work. This includes road awareness training by the fire and rescue service and the PassPlus + initiative which trains up newly qualified young drivers to a higher standard.
There is also an extensive engineering programme in the county. There is also an extensive publicity programme to make drivers aware of road safety initiatives.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:39
8:39
[Comment From billgrierson billgrierson : ]
IMO people who use detectors are probably the worst offenders of speeding
Monday November 9, 2009 8:39 billgrierson
8:40
[Comment From C.A. C.A. : ]
John you do not understand RTTM please see safespeed.org.uk/rttm.html
Monday November 9, 2009 8:40 C.A.
8:40
[Comment From C.A. C.A. : ]
sorry that was to Jan
Monday November 9, 2009 8:40 C.A.
8:40
[Comment From Michelle Michelle : ]
at the risk of starting a argument you mentioned earlier that the safety cameras have been used to catch people on there mobile phones, is this something we are going to see more of? and is the technology available to prove who was comiting the offence? i am in full support of this technology i would like to see it more widely used which is why i ask.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:40 Michelle
8:41
Kevin Tea: Broadening the remit of the safety camera vans is something we are looking at in an attempt to stop mobile phone use, double white lining, seatbelt offences etc.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:41
8:42
[Comment From Adam Bloom Adam Bloom : ]
Isn't this explosion of cameras everywhere more of the nanny state? Why shouldn't I feel like I'm living out a page of 1984?
Monday November 9, 2009 8:42 Adam Bloom
8:43
Insp Quinn: We have six static cameras and four vans.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:43
8:44
[Comment From C.A. C.A. : ]
Safe Speed was invited to this Forum tonight by the way !
and Yes I have accepted a head to head in the New Year or whenever you like
Monday November 9, 2009 8:44 C.A.
8:44
[Comment From Pete Wylie Pete Wylie : ]
Jan (comment 8:31) That's not true Jan, they were safe before. The dangers at Ings were because of the road layout which was sorted. Milnthrope road and Shap road at the camera zones have been safe,(and made safer by the extension of the speed limits. Cameras at these zones plunder safe driving (driving that used to be legal before the speed limits were extended or reduced).
Monday November 9, 2009 8:44 Pete Wylie
8:44
[Comment From Steve Steve : ]
Jan (8:31) how do you know those places are now safe?
Monday November 9, 2009 8:44 Steve
8:44
[Comment From Pete Wylie Pete Wylie : ]
To answer george's question, the main cause is vehicle improvements (with elderly drivers and boy racers - both risky road users driving newer safer cars.) Road engineering plays a huge part too. Medical enhancements and improvements are another biggie. All the police can effectively do is to referee the road, which they need to do with fairness and discretion. Cameras can have a positive impact too, but they really need to change their game plan. in fairness to CSCP I think they are making some progress down this path, and other forces may wish to look over their shoulders.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:44 Pete Wylie
8:45
[Comment From George George : ]
I have attended one of the pass plus presentations at the local fire station and I must say it really was an eye opener. It certainly made me more aware of the dangers on the road and the need to maintain the correct speed taking into consideration weather conditions, I can highly recommend this approach for all young drivers and I think it should be made compulsory
Monday November 9, 2009 8:45 George
8:47
Having spoken to a Policeman on road patrol I asked him the criteria for putting up speed camera signs at the road side. He says there are two factors - one being that there had been a fatality /serious accident on that section of road in the previous three years or some thing called the 85 per cent rule which referred to a speed check having been carried out on that section of road! I now refer to the newly constructed section we call the Howgate Bypass in the Whitehaven area. This has speed camera signs at both ends and to my knowledge there hasn't been any accident so to speak of any seriousness and I don't believe that the 85 per cent rule is the reason either. I would welcome your comments as I am cofused at what I see as another section of road that you can use your vans on without complying with guide lines. This section of road has no reference at all to the effect that it is a dual carriageway. Can someone at your end give an explanation for this? I am also led to believe that after a three year period the Speed Camera signs on that section of road which they have been on is reviewed and should be removed if there hasn't been any further fatalities or serious accidents. Looking forward to your answers which I am sure will clear up a lot of misinformed information I have about speed cameras.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:47
8:48
Kevin Tea: Since 2007 we have not been tied to the previous DfT guidelines and the introduction of random roadwatch means that we can enforce anywhere that wil take our vans safely. There are traffic surveys that show that there are incidents of high speed along the bypass and our presence there is a proactive measure to prevent KSIs.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:48
8:49
From Kieron Graham: Do you accept that if the speed camera vans were placed in areas that the general public actually want to see them, i.e. outside primary schools, shops, in housing estates, near playparks, etc. rather than focusing on motorways and 'A' roads, then you would get more public support?
Monday November 9, 2009 8:49
8:50
Kevin Tea: We find that outside schools etc drivers police themselves and maintain lower speeds so cameras are not necessary. The bulk of all KSIs in Cumbria occur on the A class rural network so it makes more sense to place our vans there.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:50
8:51
Roy Gadsby asks: The 30mph speed Limit appears rarely complied with in City of Carlisle. I live in Granville Road and my neighbourhood frequently sees cars exceeding 20mph speed limit even with a school in nearby Ashley Street the cars speed down a narrow corridor of parked cars. This is not just in this location I see speeding on Castleway, Victoria Viaduct, Edenbridges and through Rickerby Park for just few examples. This seems a regular sighting often on a night time with some in broad daylight. What is being done for the safety of the public in the actual city instead of vans sitting on busy open roads with drivers more fully aware of what they are doing? Speeding and misuse of cars with racing lunatics (although little better) is still not under control of the law. I have recently been told that if it is witnessed that something like cars going down wrong way street that the driver can now be now sent a penalty ticket through the post. Correct?
Monday November 9, 2009 8:51
8:53
Insp Quinn: This is the purpose of having local community engagement and local community meetings. This problem can be raised at a neighbourhood policing team meeting and if the view is shared that this is the main problem in the area, the local policing team will deal with it. Local meetings are held monthly in each area; information on the website.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:53
8:54
Insp Quinn: Currently, the agreed priority for the area which Granville Road falls in is anti-social behaviour involving youths, which is being addressed by the neighbourhood policing team.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:54
8:54
[Comment From Steve Steve : ]
George (8:45): if they're so good, should we be asking ourselves why learners aren't being shown that prior to getting their licence? Should we also be asking ourselves why learners are prohibited from hands-on motorway tuition?
Monday November 9, 2009 8:54 Steve
8:55
[Comment From Ian Hopley Ian Hopley : ]
I wouldn't have quite so much of a problem with speed cameras if the rules were applied with the same discretion we used to see from traffic police. I can remember anyone having been stopped for much less than 85MPH on the M6 subject to road conditions being favourable and yet under similar conditions a close family member was stopped on a near-deserted, dry M6 doing 79. This does little to improve public perception of them as a "safety" measure.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:55 Ian Hopley
8:56
[Comment From C.A. C.A. : ]
Further education for all road users is very important and a full appreciation and understanding of the correct speed for the conditions is essential in driving safely.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:56 C.A.
8:56
[Comment From Ian Hopley Ian Hopley : ]
But you still put them on the M6!
Monday November 9, 2009 8:56 Ian Hopley
8:56
[Comment From Kieron Graham Kieron Graham : ]
Yes, lets wait for a KSI outside a Primary School before any action is taken against those driving past at well over the 20mph limit!
Monday November 9, 2009 8:56 Kieron Graham
8:56
[Comment From Pete Wylie Pete Wylie : ]
I'd personally hate to see a camera van outside my kid's primary school. it'd be an unnecessary and dangerous distraction. Yes there is occasionally some idiotic driving, but never in excess of the speed limit.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:56 Pete Wylie
8:56
[Comment From bob bob : ]
Kieron, I would suggest that they wouldn't actually catch people "speeding" outside schools etc because sensible mortorists have already reduced their speeds at these places. They tend to place them on the "safer" main roads. Aren't there more accidents per volume of traffic on urban roads than rural roads anyway?
Monday November 9, 2009 8:56 bob
8:57
[Comment From Dave Evans Dave Evans : ]
Does KSI stand for 'Key Sterling Income'?
Monday November 9, 2009 8:57 Dave Evans
8:57
News & Star: KSI = Killed seriously injured
Monday November 9, 2009 8:57
8:58
[Comment From Steve Steve : ]
Michelle (8:01), such cameras are also a distraction if the limit is set needlessly low (well below a natural and safe driving speed - watching the speedo), even if the driver is doing nothing wrong. This is one issue we have today.
Monday November 9, 2009 8:58 Steve
8:58
[Comment From C.A. C.A. : ]
Actually schools are one of the safest locations for children...
Monday November 9, 2009 8:58 C.A.
9:00
[Comment From Kieron Graham Kieron Graham : ]
Sorry but I disagree. I'm a parent of a child who attends Brook Street Primary School which is in a 20mph zone and I very often see cars drive past the school at start and finish times at well over the 20mph limit. I have yet to see any Police Officer or Traffic Warden take action against irresponsible parents parking on the zig-zags either, despite the best efforts of the school to control it.
Monday November 9, 2009 9:00 Kieron Graham
9:02
Insp Quinn: Kieron if you think it is a problem it can be raised at a local community engagement meeting with the neighbourhood policing team. If that is agreed as a major problem in the area, the neighbourhood policing team will carry out work trying to address the problem. The neighbourhhod meetings are advertised on the force's website.
Monday November 9, 2009 9:02
9:02
[Comment From Pete Wylie Pete Wylie : ]
Kieron, the camera van on Wigton road didn't prevent the near fatal collision involving a 15 year old outside the school in 2006. The driver wasn't speeding anyway. The true causes (causers) of KSIs need to be properly understood by the lay public, because if they did, it would seriously change their understanding of what causes collisions. It is not the speed (numerically) that is the problem, it's the attitude of the driver, and the inappropriateness of the speed for the conditions.
Monday November 9, 2009 9:02 Pete Wylie
9:02
[Comment From C.A. C.A. : ]
KSI is Killed and Seriously Injured
Monday November 9, 2009 9:02 C.A.
9:03
[Comment From bob bob : ]
Would it noit be better to have unmarked police cars on the roads watching out for both the dangerous drivers that I see frequently and the occasional "speeder" that I see very rarely. I know that I find the antics of some of the poorer drivers much more scary than the odd person who is "in a hurry".
Monday November 9, 2009 9:03 bob
9:04
Insp Quinn: Bob (8.36) - unmarked police cars regularly operate on the roads.
Monday November 9, 2009 9:04
9:05
News & Star: That's the end folks. Sorry for the technical problems that have affected tonight's session. Regular users will know this is usually a reliable system . . . our apologies for the disruptions.
Monday November 9, 2009 9:05
9:05
2) we asked many questions, and had NO control over what got included and what didn't.
Login
Register
FAQ
Search
Members
