Safe Speed Forums

Jack Straw used an interesting term last night which I hadn't heard before, "a bias against understanding".

He was talking about the role of backbenchers but he could easily have been talking about speeding and cameras.

The argument for cameras is thinner than a diaphanous nighty. It's prejudice, plain and simple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prejudice "any unreasonable attitude that is unusually resistant to rational influence"

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigot

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

As opposed to a speed camera "going off" which just takes a nice snapshot of you having an accident. Which would you rather have?



So do other safety devices, ones that work and not make money.



The difference between a crash barrier a traffic light, a central reservation and a speed camera is somewhat wider than you seem to suggest Riggers.
Crash barriers etc are PROVEN, no shadow of doubt, to do what they say on the tin, reduce accidents and fatalities and injuries.
Now tell me honestly that a speed camera is proven to do the same.




I dont agree and neither do a lot of others.
The "science" behind speed camera supposed benefits has never been adequately explained to my satisfaction because its based on quackery and ignorance of fact propped up by a belief.

The only time a speed camera can "save a life" is if it prevents physically a car running you over, but even in that event its not in any way shape or form the most effective method for reducing casualties., may as well plant a tree there.

Im unconvinced matey, sorry.

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"Safety" Scamera Partnerships;
Profitting from death and misery since 1993.

Believe nothing- Question everything.

Rather than engaging in a tiresome post slicing exercise I'd simply observe that most of what you have pointed out, whilst essentially true in its own right, does not concern itself with the core issue of 'naming names'.



In which case, trying to maintain the a line of discourse consistent with the original proposition, you should be able to provide me with the list of the names of those whose lives a crash barrier has saved.

I am reminded of an episode of the Simpsons, where all of life is actually enacted in cartoon form . The citizens of Springfield have marched on city hall to demand that mayor Quimby do something about the bear 'attacks' - there having been only one bear in the town in living memory. So Quimby starts the Bear patrol.
Scene shifts to outside of Homer's house where Bear patrol trucks, helicopters and stealth bombers are whizzing by.

Homer: Ahh, the Bear Patrol is working perfectly, not a bear in sight.
Lise: Thats specious reasoning dad
Homer: Thank you honey
Lisa (picks up rock): By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps away tigers.
Homer: Hmmm, how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn't. But I don't see any tigers around here do you?
Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock
Lisa: No, no......(sighs, takes money and gives Homer the rock)

As Lisa says, the presence of the Bear Patrol does not prove that it has helped keep away bears. Likewise, the fact that there aren't any bears doesn't mean that the Bear Patrol hasn't help keep them away.

Similarly, not being able to name specific names does not mean that speed cameras havent saved any lives. Granted, they may be very few in number and the way in which those live have been 'saved' may be quite subtle.

But if there is a bear patrol, and the number of attacks by bears hasn't fallen, it strongly suggests the bear patrol is ineffective.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Actually, the number of attacks has fallen, by one - which was the total number of attacks in the first place.
However, the whole scene could be a skit on the case in favour of speed cameras. But it also illustrates that a specious argument can work both ways.

Thanks

For those who didn,t hear the interview on Radio 2 yesterday with Paul (an excellently put case incidentally by Paul) it was very strange to hear a serving Police officer actually say Speed Cameras are NOT A DETERRENT TO SPEEDING DRIVERS what we need are MORE TRAFFIC POLICE ON THE ROADS.

At last someone is talking a modicum of common sense (unlike that hypocrite Richard Brunstrom) .

As was said speed cameras only take a photo of a small section of road as once out of range of the cameras the determined and persistent speeder WILL EXCEED the limit time and time again so can someone explain how a camera SAVES LIVES for such a short section of road?

This statement was made by the Polce Officer on the radio interview.

A camera will only show such a small section of road so HOW DOES IT SAVE LIVES as one person said a fatal accident occured on a stretch of road with no history of accidents fatal or otherwise so a camera was installed at THE SITE OF THE ACCIDENT and there have been no accidents at this site since the camera was sited but there wasn,t any accidents (excluding this one) before so WHY WAS A CAMERA INSTALLED answer:TO RAISE REVENUE AND NOTHING ELSE!!!!!!!!!!

Again the officer also said "Cameras" DON,T CATCH DRUNK DRIVERS / UNINSURED/ UNROADWORTHY VEHICLES OR DANGEROUS DRIVERS Traffic officers DO as was also said (by the officer) when Speed cameras were introduced Traffic Police were also "REDUCED AS WELL"!

Once again cameras are a money making scam and have nothing to do with ROAD SAFETY !

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"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

I don't know about saving lives, maybe they do, maybe they don't, but they certainly promote erratic behaviour.
I've just got back from dropping my son off at Manchester airport and drove back down the A556 (I think), link between the M56 and M6. This road is dual lane each way (but not dual carriageway) and carries a 50mph speed limit and is 'policed' by yellow sentinels. I drove the 3 or 4 miles in L1 with the speedo indicating just over 50 (51-53) and ended up yo-yoing back and forth with some woman in a Peugot with a trail of cars behind her in L2. Between the cameras she'd speed up and be ahead, but as soon as that yellow box heaved into view, on would come the brakes and she'd slow to well under 50. I'd breeze by at my 50 odd and then, courage restored, she'd come by with her entourage in tow until the next camera . Rinse and repeat. Net result, we arrived at the M6 junction more or less together.
Can't help but think this speedy up slowy down behaviour is not really doing a great deal to aid road safety.

RTTM?

Quite, hence my point...

Trolling? Just because he has an opinion which doesn't match yours?

That's not trolling. That's just someone with an informed but counter opinion. And one which has no agenda but one of safety.

Neither is he stupid. I thought ad hominem was banned on here?

It probably wasn't trolling, at least in the classical sense (like accusing someone of stating 'flooring the throttle to avoid fatigue' when nothing of the sort was said or implied); but there's no suggestion that it was 'informed' - which was the point of the thread.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

If you want to restart your argument that speeding up is a safer way of overcoming severe fatigue than pulling over and having a rest then go ahead. A new thread would be considerate.

Coming from you that is a classic.
Anybody who ventures onto the C+ forum who has an opinion which doesn't fall into line with yours is instantly classed as a troll .
Not just by you but by your buddies, TT, Jaded ,Rothbook .
You really are the ultimate hypocrite .

You really want to lose another argument in public?

Interesting, some back-pedalling mixed with yet more misrepresentation.
Where did I say that? Do you still not understand the difference between “couldn’t” and “shouldn’t”?

Money where mouth is: I’ll Paypal £20 to the account of your choice if you show where I stated or implied:
“severe fatigue can be safely countered by flooring the accelerator”

Failure to address this simple request will show you up for the lying troll you really are!

I predict his next post will be filled with more irrelevant b****x

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Once again we all turn our attention to trying to increase JubJub's somewhat slender grasp on reality. We all know that not even he believes the specious arguments he presents, since he (or indeed the OP) make no attempt to answer any of the challenging questions that have been placed within this thread.

[Nostradamus moment - I predict several posts from jubjub stating that all arguments have been answered whilst simultaneously failing to answer any questions, stating they have already been answered. I would list all unanswered points, but I feel it is pointless, we all know why they remain unanswered.]

I very much doubt he'll return to this thread ;his usual M.O. is to slink off when he's on a loser.

Liebchen - you don't know the history perhaps. Martin ist hen pecked by wife. I think ist JEC und not Martin behind this one.


Ach - I know not if you are married. No man would dare say such things as I do as woman... und I do because I can

I take the proverbial out of my own sex. I also call the mad doc a "right wus" in fun too Ja - if you like one rule for the sisterhood und none for you mere men

But Paulie Jubbby Jubbed Up the olde Lycra one (und - ja - am indulging in the olde well meaning banter as this family are certainly not as those non cycling idiots on the "dark side" perceive as we - we actually buy the rag in question in rota und pass on throughout the family chain ) - speed cams do not save lives at all. They measure speed but not the driver error which cause the misery. We are not seeing carnage drop in scam hot spots. But we do see drops in those few areas left which leave all prosecution in POLICEMEN'S HANDS.

I want more policemen. I feel safe with a strong policeman protecting me. I do not feel at all safe with Steve's digital doo-dahs.

I know my sub-marinated little fiend ist also a friend over silly cycle lanes though. We still playing ping pong with letters over those suicidal lanes though.

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

ACH! Jubbed up the Mister Paulied One/

Forgot to add... my big sister did mail me. She ask me to blow you "a prissy Swissy Krissi kissi" "

You know what she like I know what she like too She say not to come to Dales first week in August as they have 4x4 session planned around Grassington/Kettlewell. But any other time - especially the second/third August week when Kettlewell hosts scarecrow fest und a folk concert .. that ist time to visit und she will be participating in all events too. So she say - if you pass through on bike - she will be nice to you und tell you where to find best ice cream und ales:wink:

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!