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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 14:37 
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Manchester Evening News

Quote:
Police death smash bike 'grounded'
Tuesday, 1st August 2006
Nicola Dowling

POLICE chiefs have withdrawn a model of motorbike from service after the deaths of two officers during training exercises.

Pc Allan Shaw, 33, died last month after his Honda ST1300 struck a stationary lorry in Astley Bridge, Bolton, during a police training exercise. His death came eight months after a fatal crash when an officer on a similar model was in collision with a lorry in Skelmersdale.

About 20 of the bikes have been withdrawn from service by Greater Manchester Police while an investigation continues into the death of Pc Shaw.

It is understood other police forces have taken similar action. The decision was taken after the Police Federation, which represents rank-and-file officers, urged forces to suspend use of the bike. Federation chairman Jan Berry wrote to the president of the Association of Chief Police Officers saying: ". . . we have concluded that until the stability of these motorcycles can be assured they must be withdrawn from police use."

The Manchester branch of the federation also wrote to GMP asking for the bikes to be withdrawn pending an investigation.

Chairman Paul Kelly said: "At this early stage we are not aware of any evidence pointing towards the type of bike being a factor in Allan's accident. But in light of the earlier accident in Lancashire, we requested the chief officer as a precautionary measure to remove them from normal patrol." Meredydd Hughes, ACPO's spokesman on road policing and Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police, said: "Forces are working with Honda to establish if there are any issues with the machine and ACPO and the Police Federation have requested forces to introduce some basic safety measures."

A Honda spokesman said the firm had worked closely with police forces to develop the model according to their particular specifications. He said the bike had been around for four or five years and was the "most popular bike in the country" for police.


Could there be a fault with this model of motorcycle, or simply down to driver error?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 14:40 
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Dixie wrote:
Could there be a fault with this model of motorcycle, or simply down to driver error?


The rumours are persistent, at least.

The leading theory seems to be that Police equipment raises the centre of gravity and can lead to an unspecified form of instability.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 15:09 
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By the sound of it, Honda needs to remove the Lorry magnet from the front wheel.

On a more serious note, Paul is right. Having large paniers and a top box full of gubbins does raise the CoG quite significantly thus affecting the stability. I would assume that the layout of the bike, location of the luggage and overall weight of the machine would cause different effects from model to model thus it might well be that the bike in question is inherantly unstable when loaded in this way.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 18:00 
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Would'nt some riders have reported "near miss" type events before this though?
It sounds as though they are totally in the dark as to the cause at present - and if it were an instability problem due to extra kit carried, surely it would have presented itself in a recognisable manner before now?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 19:24 
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All the reports I've heard seem to centre around a weave that develops at high speed. IIRC, Honda say they can't replicate the problem.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:58 
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if they can't replicate the problem - why are they alegidly experimenting with modified swing arms and using ex-plod test riders for feedback. ;)

It seems the problem is alegidly a combination of the police spec and sustained high speeds causing some sort of torque wind on the swing arm/shaft drive.

this is based on rumours I've heard 3rd hand. ;) so honda don't sue me :D


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 20:16 
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the same problem occurred on the BMW machines that used to be used. It was "solved" by moving the panniers forward....the bikes then became single seat. The more weight on the back, the less on the front


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 08:37 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/mers ... 600897.stm
Quote:
Police bike is 'serious threat'

A standard issue police motorbike used by 22 forces poses a "serious threat" to riders' lives, a coroner has said.
Dr James Adeley is to write to chief constables across England and Wales to warn them of a "catastrophic result" which can occur with the Honda model.

He was speaking at an inquest into the death of Pc David Shreeve, of Wirral, who was thrown off a bike in training.

Honda said safety was paramount and it would continue to liaise with the police in light of the coroner's words.

Pc Shreeve, 38, was travelling at about 110mph along the M58 motorway near Skelmersdale, Lancashire, on 9 November 2005 when he lost control.

The inquest in Lancaster heard that the bike began to shake violently in a phenomenon known as high speed weave.

The Merseyside Police officer was crushed to death under a lorry after he fell off.

Dr Adeley recorded a narrative verdict into the death.

The Preston and West Lancashire coroner told the inquest that after Pc Shreeve's death the model underwent comprehensive safety checks.

In one test an examiner broke his leg and fractured both wrists after being thrown off in another high speed weave.

One Lancashire Constabulary examiner, Peter Wilson, reported the problem was "the worst weave on any bike he had tested in his career", the inquest heard.

Merseyside Police immediately withdrew all models from service after the accident, but there are about 450 police Honda ST1300s being used by officers across the country.

The inquest was told that problems affected only police models of the motorcycle with their heavy emergency and communications equipment.

Merseyside Police withdrew the Honda ST1300A at the time of this incident, and has not used the bike since

Assistant Chief Constable Patricia Gallan, Merseyside Police

Pc Shreeve was described as a "good officer and a nice fellow" who was a "careful, competent, not panicky and a cerebral rider".

Assistant Chief Constable Patricia Gallan of Merseyside Police said: "The death of Dave has been a tragic loss of an experienced and popular officer who spent much of his time helping his colleagues and mentoring officers of less experience than himself.

"Merseyside Police withdrew the Honda ST1300A at the time of this incident, and has not used the bike since.

"We're grateful that the coroner recognises the professionalism of our trainers and that neither David Shreeve, nor the force, was in any way responsible for this tragic incident."

Honda said it had a strong working relationship with the majority of the police forces across the UK, which had lasted more than 15 years.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 13:49 
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My other bike (one I use for commuting) is an ST1100 - (ST1300 predecessor) and I have also ridden the new ST1300. Obviously, it wasn't a police spec one, but I had absolutely no handling problems on it, even when it was ridden in a spirited fashion.

I quite liked it, but unfortunately, I have a wife who vetoed the part-ex on my current Pan :(

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 15:08 
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BottyBurp wrote:
My other bike (one I use for commuting) is an ST1100 - (ST1300 predecessor) and I have also ridden the new ST1300. Obviously, it wasn't a police spec one, but I had absolutely no handling problems on it, even when it was ridden in a spirited fashion.

I quite liked it, but unfortunately, I have a wife who vetoed the part-ex on my current Pan :(


You may have been glad she did. I know of someone who bought one and he reported no problems whatsoever. Once he goes out with the Mrs touring, he noticed a weave. He just maintains a slower speed with the Mrs on the back.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 21:59 
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The STX1300 now has a Police duty limit of 80mph so i'm told. that means the mini pan the dull ville has a higher top speed 85mph.

TBH they should withdraw it as an STX1300 with a top limit of 80 is pretty useless.

watch out for cheap STXs on the market


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 Post subject: ST1300 Pan
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 19:16 
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:twisted: Hmm... I thought the need for speed was gone, with the advent of radio's, calling ahead to stop vehicles and setting road blocks etc;
Why was the officer doing speeds in excess of the national limits of 30,40,50,60 or 70 (dependant on road types & conditions) if only training, kinda says don't break the speed limits huh, thats why they're there!

On a more serious note, boys take care out there if you have one of these tank slappers...remember there's always the trusted ST1100, tried and tested.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:21 
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I was held up for several hours shortly after this accident, and was amazed to hear later that the officer was from OUTSIDE the force area of the motorway. I am not convinced that a faulty machine was the cause of the accident. The M58 is notorious for its steep gradients, poor surface and poor junction design. It was originally an A class road (A506) built to link the new town of Skelmersdale with the M6. It was later extended to Liverpool, upgraded to motorway status and renumbered M58. During off-peak periods there is little traffic and it is tempting to exceed the speed limit by a considerable margin. I cannot understand why a Merseyside police officer was being trained at very high speed on a poor quality motorway in the Lancashire force area when there are perfectly good motorways in the Merseyside area such as M62, M57 and M53.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 22:59 
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Again through conversations with those on the inside its my understanding that those on watch duties have switched to blackbirds. Although I thought thats what they always used.

With regards to speeding - its my understanding that a surveillance riders are authorised for up to 160mph


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 Post subject: Re: ST1300 Pan
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 13:35 
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UKMCTC wrote:
Why was the officer doing speeds in excess of the national limits of 30,40,50,60 or 70 (dependant on road types & conditions) if only training[...]
Perhaps because it was safe to do so?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 13:39 
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diy wrote:
Again through conversations with those on the inside its my understanding that those on watch duties have switched to blackbirds[...]
shhh :yesyes: and Aprilia RSV Mille...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 16:45 
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BottyBurp wrote:
diy wrote:
Again through conversations with those on the inside its my understanding that those on watch duties have switched to blackbirds[...]
shhh :yesyes: and Aprilia RSV Mille...


In that case there won't be very many on the roads, Mille's, as Aprillia are notorious for not having enough parts in for servicing. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 18:56 
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davenorthwest wrote:
I cannot understand why a Merseyside police officer was being trained at very high speed on a poor quality motorway

Most of the roads in the UK are shit from a quality point of view, so if you are going to have to ride on crap tarmac then you might as well learn straight from the beginning.

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 Post subject: Re: !
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 23:22 
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jomukuk wrote:
the same problem occurred on the BMW machines that used to be used. It was "solved" by moving the panniers forward....the bikes then became single seat. The more weight on the back, the less on the front


sorry to chip in so late but donkeys years ago when i was a avid rider a plod told me they had to offset the rear wheel alignment to get the radio kit on the old beemers......didnt make em handle to well apparently

dunno if it was an old lag gulling a naive 18 year old or if it was true :shock:


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