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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:41 
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As an IAM Observer in a car I have to be au fait with the IAM rules and regulations.

As the owner of a Honda XR125L I am not allowed to take the IAM Bike test because in order to do so the machine has to be capable of maintaining national speed limits. My 55-60 mph is therefore not enough. A CBR125, an Aprilia RS125 or a Cagiva Mito rider could take the test, though.

Should I be trying to get the rules changed as a large chunk of motorcylists are being left out?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:59 
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A Cyclist wrote:
Should I be trying to get the rules changed as a large chunk of motorcylists are being left out?


I don't think so.

Higher speeds demand and promote higher levels of skill, and higher speeds may expose limitations in less skilled riders.

If we weren't in PC speed obsessed times, I would have thought that 100mph performance should be the minimum standard for training and judging advanced motorcycling.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 13:52 
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A Cyclist wrote:
As an IAM Observer in a car I have to be au fait with the IAM rules and regulations.

As the owner of a Honda XR125L I am not allowed to take the IAM Bike test because in order to do so the machine has to be capable of maintaining national speed limits. My 55-60 mph is therefore not enough. A CBR125, an Aprilia RS125 or a Cagiva Mito rider could take the test, though.

Should I be trying to get the rules changed as a large chunk of motorcylists are being left out?


This sounds very odd, I didnt think that the power available from a 125cc machine would vary significantly from one manufacturer to another. As these machines are learner legal for 17 year olds, I wouldnt expect the top speed of any 125cc machine to deviate significantly from 60mph.

I fail to see why there should be any discrimination between machines. Perhaps it would be better to base the minimum requirements on power output, to take a direct access test you have to pass on a machine of over 48kW (?), so you could suggest a minimum output of XkW for IAM.

Ok, I'm rambling...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 14:00 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
A Cyclist wrote:
Should I be trying to get the rules changed as a large chunk of motorcylists are being left out?


I don't think so.

Higher speeds demand and promote higher levels of skill, and higher speeds may expose limitations in less skilled riders.

If we weren't in PC speed obsessed times, I would have thought that 100mph performance should be the minimum standard for training and judging advanced motorcycling.


I assume you mean a bike with top speed of at least 100mph. Your comment could be interpreted as "a rider must be able to perform competantly at 100mph".

Thinking about this further, top speed is not necessarily a good indicator. One of my bikes (a honda deauville) is very slow in motorcycling terms. It will achieve 100mph, but will take a (relatively) long time to get there. My other bike (R6) is a headcase, and will hit 100 in 3rd gear very quickly.

Both bikes fulfill your 100mph performance minimum, but the R6 is "more deserving" of advanced training.

Hmm, not sure that makes much sense now, but I typed it...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 14:15 
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Sullen_Scrota wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
A Cyclist wrote:
Should I be trying to get the rules changed as a large chunk of motorcylists are being left out?


I don't think so.

Higher speeds demand and promote higher levels of skill, and higher speeds may expose limitations in less skilled riders.

If we weren't in PC speed obsessed times, I would have thought that 100mph performance should be the minimum standard for training and judging advanced motorcycling.


I assume you mean a bike with top speed of at least 100mph. Your comment could be interpreted as "a rider must be able to perform competantly at 100mph".

Thinking about this further, top speed is not necessarily a good indicator. One of my bikes (a honda deauville) is very slow in motorcycling terms. It will achieve 100mph, but will take a (relatively) long time to get there. My other bike (R6) is a headcase, and will hit 100 in 3rd gear very quickly.

Both bikes fulfill your 100mph performance minimum, but the R6 is "more deserving" of advanced training.

Hmm, not sure that makes much sense now, but I typed it...


Yeah. You're right. My definition isn't really adequate. I was basing it crudely on the current IAM definition. However, irrespective of the definition, I stand by the main point.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 14:30 
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Sullen_Scrota wrote:
A Cyclist wrote:
As an IAM Observer in a car I have to be au fait with the IAM rules and regulations.

As the owner of a Honda XR125L I am not allowed to take the IAM Bike test because in order to do so the machine has to be capable of maintaining national speed limits. My 55-60 mph is therefore not enough. A CBR125, an Aprilia RS125 or a Cagiva Mito rider could take the test, though.

Should I be trying to get the rules changed as a large chunk of motorcylists are being left out?


This sounds very odd, I didnt think that the power available from a 125cc machine would vary significantly from one manufacturer to another. As these machines are learner legal for 17 year olds, I wouldnt expect the top speed of any 125cc machine to deviate significantly from 60mph.

I fail to see why there should be any discrimination between machines. Perhaps it would be better to base the minimum requirements on power output, to take a direct access test you have to pass on a machine of over 48kW (?), so you could suggest a minimum output of XkW for IAM.

Ok, I'm rambling...


It's all down to engine configuration and power to weight ratios - single cylinder 124cc engines tend to top out at about 60, where as a V-twin may push on to 75 because of the power delivey characteristics. Something like a 2-stroke RS125 can easily hit 90-100mph derestricted!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 15:33 
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In a couple of years 55 will be the NSL shoud should be OK.... :x

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 15:46 
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Gizmo wrote:
In a couple of years 55 will be the NSL shoud should be OK.... :x


Over a lot of dead bodies, including mine.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:11 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
A Cyclist wrote:
Should I be trying to get the rules changed as a large chunk of motorcylists are being left out?


I don't think so.

Higher speeds demand and promote higher levels of skill, and higher speeds may expose limitations in less skilled riders.

If we weren't in PC speed obsessed times, I would have thought that 100mph performance should be the minimum standard for training and judging advanced motorcycling.


I understand the importance of being able to make good progress but a lot of advanced driving/ riding skills are equally applicable to lower speeds than 60 or 70 mph, particularly anticipation, observation and appropriate reaction for vulnerable bikers, e.g. the consequences of a SMIDSY are just as bad on a 125. Also positioning on the road and ability to read the severity of bends on approach is the same e.g. if you hit a wall at 50 mph on a 125 you'll be just as dead as doing at 100 mph on a superbike.
With a 125 I keep off straight main roads but I still need the same skills on back roads, in fact being aware of the unexpected and how to react is arguably more important on back roads.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:40 
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Gizmo wrote:
In a couple of years 55 will be the NSL shoud should be OK.... :x
And will still be ignored by me, if it's safe to do so...

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:43 
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Anyone can ride a bike extremely fast on a straight bit of road. To me, the real skills of biking are COAST. And that is what I think any advanced riding courses should mainly target.

Along with proper, positive counter-steering! What a difference that makes to cornering!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:24 
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A Cyclist wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
A Cyclist wrote:
Should I be trying to get the rules changed as a large chunk of motorcylists are being left out?


I don't think so.

Higher speeds demand and promote higher levels of skill, and higher speeds may expose limitations in less skilled riders.

If we weren't in PC speed obsessed times, I would have thought that 100mph performance should be the minimum standard for training and judging advanced motorcycling.


I understand the importance of being able to make good progress but a lot of advanced driving/ riding skills are equally applicable to lower speeds than 60 or 70 mph, particularly anticipation, observation and appropriate reaction for vulnerable bikers, e.g. the consequences of a SMIDSY are just as bad on a 125. Also positioning on the road and ability to read the severity of bends on approach is the same e.g. if you hit a wall at 50 mph on a 125 you'll be just as dead as doing at 100 mph on a superbike.
With a 125 I keep off straight main roads but I still need the same skills on back roads, in fact being aware of the unexpected and how to react is arguably more important on back roads.


I think you missed my point. Have a look at http://www.safespeed.org.uk/problem2.html

'Speed' is a stressor that promotes learning and exposes flaws.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 23:50 
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I think you could show advanced skills at these speeds, but only through commentary*. Unfortunately this requires additional skills to advanced riding imho.

*This applies in general in my opinion; A passenger of someone driving well at 160 on a motorway can appreciate their skill, where as a passenger of someone driving at 100 needs a commentary to differentiate between the skilled an the lucky.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 13:52 
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Even though the 125 test and the DAS test have the same criteria, the examiner will not expect a 125 rider to make the same progress as as DAS student purely because they don't have the power. The same would need to apply to the IAM test.

Advanced riding isn't just about safer riding. is about demonstrating smoothness, sparkle and flair. Its quit difficult to overtake a car doing 50 on an NSL with a top speed of 55 - 65. I don't think its unreasonable to use a bike with a bit more oomph.

after all if you have a full licence you could just rent one for the day. If you don't you might want to pass direct access first. The Standard motorcycle L-test is still quite challenging on its own.

Secondly its much more challenging demoing machine control (e.g. full lock turns) on a pan euro than a 100kg 125 (which you can counter lean all the way round).


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