Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 07:45

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Road platform
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 22:36 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 15:00
Posts: 1109
Location: Can't see.
Had an a-class thing car pull out in front of me driving home this evening, forcing me to brake firmly (but not panicked). Oddly though he gave me a cheery little wave as I reached to blast my horn and shout something unprintable.

Think I might have just sussed it though- the junction was on a raised table, and I think hitting the table my dipped headlights going skyward momentarily may have given him the impression he was being "flashed".

One to be wary of.

_________________
Fear is a weapon of mass distraction


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 23:10 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 19:08
Posts: 3434
Yes I've noticed that a lot when people go over speed bumps, you get the impression, sometimes, that they are flashing their lights at you.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 04:13 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7355
Location: Highlands
So then is the 'core problem' the lack of ability to communicate appropriately with other drivers, or the mis-use of lights?
Apart form the obvious and necessary total removal of suspension damaging, raised road chicanes (or false 'crossings for peds').

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 05:57 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:01
Posts: 4813
Location: Essex
Quote:
Oddly though he gave me a cheery little wave as I reached to blast my horn and shout something unprintable.

Are you joking or serious? This is the kind of thing that exacerbates all sorts of issues and can lead to road rage. A hoot is only worth it if it can usefully cause the miscreant to become alert and avert things. You already had it under control so such an action would be wrong here.

Sorry - you're likely joking and I should go to bed!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 19:11 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 15:00
Posts: 1109
Location: Can't see.
Roger wrote:
Quote:
Oddly though he gave me a cheery little wave as I reached to blast my horn and shout something unprintable.

Are you joking or serious? This is the kind of thing that exacerbates all sorts of issues and can lead to road rage. A hoot is only worth it if it can usefully cause the miscreant to become alert and avert things. You already had it under control so such an action would be wrong here.

Sorry - you're likely joking and I should go to bed!


I did blast my horn, but he wouldn't have heard what I said.

How would you, in the spur of the moment, alert another driver to the fact they'd just made a very poor decision?

Okay it can be taken as a sign of outward aggression, but a) since when is telling people you're not impressed with them is a universally bad thing and b) he really needs to know he made an error, if I'm correct, and he interpreted my headlights-hitting-the-speed-bump as "flashing him out", he may question why I did it and arrive at the same conclusion.

_________________
Fear is a weapon of mass distraction


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 20:40 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 19:08
Posts: 3434
Whilst I acknowledge that when someone does something wrong and realises it, (put their hand up in this case) there is no need to hoot but if someone does something really daft in front of you, maybe because they are so unobservant/asleep that they didn't notice you, it is worth a toot just to say "look I'm behind you, if you used your mirrors more you might have known that". I do it when someone in front of me turns left sharply without indicating.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 17:43 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:01
Posts: 4813
Location: Essex
Quote:
How would you, in the spur of the moment, alert another driver to the fact they'd just made a very poor decision?


If it is evident they realise it already, by overtly keeping out of their way until they have completed the wrongness or reversed it. Keeping the moral high ground I find sticks for the future far better than "proving them wrong" and alerting their error to others with horn-blast.

If they are unaware of it, and I can avert further risk by either horn, lights, obstruction or whatever, then I'll do whatever it takes to diffuse a situation.

In this situation, the only thing the erranrt driver did wrong here was not realise that you were going over a speed bump. The chances are you'd slowed up for it - and he may well - legitimately - have interpreted you as first slowing down, then flashing your lights - a good combination for "come out in front of me". SO... look inward, learn from it - and be aware of this inadvertent (and almost inevitable) risk that your speed bump modus operandi created - and be prepared in similar circumstances to go through with more braking if someone else takes you up on your kind invitation.. <and yes, I'm being serious - I invariably stay hovered over the brake if I go over a speed bump with lights on and there is a driver waiting to egress to the road I'm on>.


Quote:
..... it is worth a toot just to say "look I'm behind you, if you used your mirrors more you might have known that". I do it when someone in front of me turns left sharply without indicating.


I think most people do the toot thing for such inconsideration. However, I find that, in 90% or more of such cases, I already know (yes *know*)that the non-indicating car is about to take some action other than proceed along the main drag when this happens from the myriad of other likely clues, often occurring in compbination. Lift off several seconds before-hand, slight adjustment to road trajectory (often a swing-out if it is an old boy), head turn to look up the side road (as opposed to a glance), passenger bracing, ... the list is long - many signs are exceedingly subtle... but they all go to build up the sixth sense that makes such actions almost better than an indicator and ensure that you're way back already and may not even have to brake. As above, if I find I have to brake sharply, I'm too busy trying to work out what signs I missed so I won't have to do so next time to be bothered to try to "learn" the chap who failed to indicate.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 18:11 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7355
Location: Highlands
It is never our 'job' on the road to ever 'teach' anyone that they made a mistake, or that they may learn from a toot, or any indication no matter how tempting it may be at the time to do so.
It is I agree, a matter of learning within y/ourself to be far more prepared to foresee and predict an event, and if you have not, then why not, lack of observation perhaps, or lack of attention?
After all, if you do make a noise or gesture toward any driver, AFTER an event, where they have already shown a very 'low' driving ability, then surely all you are going to do is potentially distracting them further and also upset them. That may more likely lead to another problem.

So when is it right to toot, generally speaking, I see it as timing - AS someone is in the process of executing a manoeuvre and has failed to inform other road users, and you are in danger of being hit. Generally speaking I should always have expected to have anticipated, allowed for it, and probably already have them down, as a 'driving chicane' anyway, and allowed plenty of room. Car positioning is a big give away about a drivers intentions.
It feels really good to have anticipated and then seen it happen, far far better than the frustration that you have allowed them to get you into.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 18:29 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 22:02
Posts: 3266
Ben has a point here, the raises table caused his car to appear to flash the lights at the a-class. This seams worse with those blue head lights than conventional bulbs which can appear to flash on a regular un-even road.

Whist it is not saintly driving to b-l-a-s-t your horn at a smaller car. occasionally it has to be done. Especially as Hairy Ben cant see too well, :D

_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 20:59 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 15:00
Posts: 1109
Location: Can't see.
TBH the horn blast is a side issue. I'm well aware of why it might be deemed less than ideal in a certain light. I'll use mine when it seems appropriate to me :wink:

This thread was to point out, while most drivers will have noticed the flash effect of headlights on speed bumps, the way the less tuned in might miss-interpret it, which I, and probably many others, maybe haven't considered. This moron "caught a flash" and sauntered right out in front of me. He didn't register my relative speed of approach, just acted on impulse. "He flashed me out so I will go la-de-da-de-da". I think thats important. :bunker:

_________________
Fear is a weapon of mass distraction


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 21:11 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 19:08
Posts: 3434
Anton's right about the blue lights appearing to flash more than most. I was being followed by a car with extremely bright blue lights last night on a country road and every time he hit a slight dip in the road it was as if he was on full beam.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:42 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:01
Posts: 4813
Location: Essex
graball wrote:
Anton's right about the blue lights appearing to flash more than most. I was being followed by a car with extremely bright blue lights last night on a country road and every time he hit a slight dip in the road it was as if he was on full beam.


The blue-biassed headlights are adjusted slightly higher than most as a standard factory set-up. This can be done, nominally with safety, for two reasons:

1) They have a sharper cut-off than the "normal" headlights - better beam collimation/focus

2) Cars so fitted are obliged to have a self-levelling mechanism fitted so that, for additional load in the rear, they automatically re-adjust to be no higher (remember how we all used to be dazzled by Austin Princesses which had a double whammy of car attitude when people were in the back).

However, this is flawed to an extent.

1) is only true when the headlight glass is spotless. Any road film allows specular reflections back inwards and then back out in a far less-well focussed beam pattern, which causes gratuitous dazzle to oncoming traffic (so a headlight wash system is mandatory, but often not used to preserve water for the windscreen).

2) does NOT Take into account either long uphill stretches to a flat bit at the top, nor of course does it take account of bumps (at least not in cars I have experience of - maybe some do?).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 00:34 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 21:51
Posts: 293
I think Hairyben should be reminded that using his horn as an act of retrubution is an offence. Clearly the danger had passed (if there was any at all as Hairyben seems unphased by what happened). The horn is to advise other road users of your prescence. By the time Hairyben was using his, the other driver was well aware of his presence.

Research shows that people are more likely to have an accident in the 20mins following a horn being blown at them or believing that a horn had been blown at them. Some years ago, there was a campaign to amend EU Law to stop cars having horns as it was believed that they cause more accidents than they save - obviously its not happening.

Blowing a horn is not a conditioned reaction like emergency braking, unless you have an anger management problem and are constantly blowing your horn and shouting abuse at other road users who can't even hear you.

When someone blows a horn, I say if you had time to make an unconditioned reaction, braking was not really such a problem.

I had someone coming towards me and turn right, saw me, panicked and jammed the brakes on and stopped infront of me! Ironically if she had kept going, out of my path it would never have been a problem. It was dry so I kept locked up and stopped about 2 feet away and smoke rose when I stopped. The other cars passenger was frantically waving in an appologetic manner, but did I blow my horn?

No I just winked and smiled because I felt smug that I could drive better than her.

If people are so upset that they need to blow the horn in retribution I question if their personality traits are suitable to be allowed on the road.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 07:40 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
Quote:
I think Hairyben should be reminded that using his horn as an act of retrubution is an offence.


Which legislation is that? CUR reg 99 merely makes it an offence to use the horn when stationary on the road or when driving in a built up area between 2330 an 0730 (except when another road user poses a danger)

Quote:
No I just winked and smiled because I felt smug that I could drive better than her


!!!SARCASM ALERT!!! Research by Dr Strabismus, whom God preserve, of Utrecht ha shown that "smug people who think they are better drivers" are 17.394% more likely to have an accident :evil:

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:24 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:16
Posts: 7986
Location: Moved to London
Lucy W wrote:
Research shows that people are more likely to have an accident in the 20mins following a horn being blown at them or believing that a horn had been blown at them.

That's interesting. Can you provide a link to it?

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 18:52 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 15:00
Posts: 1109
Location: Can't see.
Lucy W wrote:
I think Hairyben should be reminded that using his horn as an act of retrubution is an offence.


I've seen a copper do this...

Lucy W wrote:
Clearly the danger had passed (if there was any at all as Hairyben seems unphased by what happened). The horn is to advise other road users of your prescence. By the time Hairyben was using his, the other driver was well aware of his presence.


I was alerting him to my presence! :wink:

Lucy W wrote:
Research shows that people are more likely to have an accident in the 20mins following a horn being blown at them or believing that a horn had been blown at them. Some years ago, there was a campaign to amend EU Law to stop cars having horns as it was believed that they cause more accidents than they save - obviously its not happening.


People who get horns blown at them are probably more likely to have an accident, period. Think about it.

Lucy W wrote:
Blowing a horn is not a conditioned reaction like emergency braking, unless you have an anger management problem and are constantly blowing your horn and shouting abuse at other road users who can't even hear you.

When someone blows a horn, I say if you had time to make an unconditioned reaction, braking was not really such a problem.

I had someone coming towards me and turn right, saw me, panicked and jammed the brakes on and stopped infront of me! Ironically if she had kept going, out of my path it would never have been a problem. It was dry so I kept locked up and stopped about 2 feet away and smoke rose when I stopped. The other cars passenger was frantically waving in an appologetic manner, but did I blow my horn?

No I just winked and smiled because I felt smug that I could drive better than her.

If people are so upset that they need to blow the horn in retribution I question if their personality traits are suitable to be allowed on the road.


You & co can say this and that about the psychological subtleties of the horn, but ultimately I didn't anticipate him pulling out, he for whatever reason seemed to think it was okay. Thats an error that needs highlighting, no different from a million others in every walk of life. My nearest tool to perform that task is the horn.

one thing I like about the french motorways (if they're still like it today) is people will flash you if they want you to move over, and everyone does. It's not taken as aggressive and doesn't lead to a pissing contest, it's just someone wants to go a bit quicker and you're kinda in the way and thats it. It's just a signal. you go try it on the M40 though :roll:

_________________
Fear is a weapon of mass distraction


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 18:57 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 21:51
Posts: 293
Walley:
I can’t be bothered to look it up, but I am certain that somewhere it says your horn is only for warning other users of your presence. Why don’t you copy and paste CUR 99 and we can see if we can find it in there for you?

I don’t fall into Dr Strabismus 17% as I don’t think I am better, I know I am better. :lol:

Steve:
Sorry don’t have a link or any papers on the matter. It was a good few years ago and it was only something I heard about (from a reliable source).
The gist as I remember, is that research “had shown” that if you have been un-nerved by a horn blasting, then for the next 20mins you were significantly more likely to have an accident – which makes sense to me.
Nevertheless there was a campaign that lobbied the EU. Perhaps it was something that the RAC or AA campaigned for?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 19:03 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 21:51
Posts: 293
[quote="hairyben"]

You & co can say this and that about the psychological subtleties of the horn, but ultimately I didn't anticipate him pulling out, he for whatever reason seemed to think it was okay. Thats an error that needs highlighting, no different from a million others in every walk of life. My nearest tool to perform that task is the horn.
quote]

And just what do you think the driver learnt? It seems that they thought you were a friend "pipping" a friendly hello and so waved back at you, smiling, probably wondering "who the hell was that?"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 03:31 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7355
Location: Highlands
I am pondering if the hand wave that they gave you was the 'I know that I shouldn't be doing this' but 'as there is an inch of space, I have leapt out into it, and I know that I should not have' scenario, so 'I have been really cheeky, and slightly dangerous, so if I wave and smile nicely' you may hit your horn, but I am likely to get away with no more than that !

In City driving - and I assume we are talk your local City here ;) then I have certainly had this occur to me.

The 'false flash' problems, are most interesting.
It is a really dangerous phenomenon and nothing to do with Road safety and yet another reason against the bumps and tables !

I often go over the bumps and tables at an angle so one front wheel goes slightly before the other which I hope makes this 'flash' less, plus I try to go quite slow and steady too. I have debated which wheel should go first and I reckon the o/s one BUT some bumps / tables have either not enough space to do this but I aim for this. The point being that the car is facing away from on-coming traffic (slightly) when approaching making it the safest angle / facing direction for all eventualities, other than people stepping out - but even then I could argue that the vision has already been taken and path plotted for best optimal route.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Road platform
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 19:11 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
Lucy W wrote:
Walley:
I can’t be bothered to look it up, but I am certain that somewhere it says your horn is only for warning other users of your presence. Why don’t you copy and paste CUR 99 and we can see if we can find it in there for you?



HC 112 : You MUST NOT use your horn
When stationary on the road
When driving in a built up area between the hours of 11:30 pm anm and 7:00 am
except when another road user poses a danger.
CUR reg 99

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.041s | 13 Queries | GZIP : Off ]