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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 21:49 
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Not quite a near miss but I figured here was the best place for this one.

Tuesday morning I was taking a friend down to the shopping centre at Cribbs Causeway (M5 J15). Coming to the roundabout by Currys and PC World I picked up the right hand lane, indicated right and proceeded onto the roundabout (taking the 3rd exit of 4). For those that don't know it the approach road is a DC, straight on (2nd exit) continues the DC, left towards B&Q and Morrisons is SC and right goes straight into the retail park.

As I passed the 2nd exit and changed to a left indicator I noticed a maroon coloured Fiesta approaching the roundabout. The driver did not appear to be slowing down or looking to their right. Instinctively I lifted off and covered the brake pedal - I didn't apply the brakes at this stage as I still had right lock on and the road was wet; braking would have been a bad idea, however I was straightening up at this point to take the exit. My speed at a guess (was looking at the road not the speedo!) would have been 15-20mph, maybe less.

The Fiesta driver - without looking to their right - continued onto the roundabout. At this point having straightened up the steering I braked hard, instinctively sounding the horn. Missed by at least half a car length (which at that speed is as good as a mile), then noticed the L-plates on the rear windscreen. Worth noting that no L-plate was being displayed on the front of the car.

Ok, so far so good, these things happen. I continued into the car park and noticed the woman behind me in a Zafira flashing her lights at me and making manic gestures. Ignoring her I parked up then got out of the car along with my friend. As I walked to the back of my car she wound her window down and launched a torrent of abuse at me and my friend about "taking roundabouts at 70mph" and "intimidating learner drivers".

I simply told her to go home and read her highway code and specifically the section on roundabouts, at which point she sped off across the car park, spinning the wheels as she took off. Thought about taking her number but really couldn't be bothered.

As far as I can see I did everything right with the learner (had he been displaying an L-plate on the front I'd have been even less surprised for him to pull out on me), but this woman's aggression was a mystery. Sometimes I wonder if it's the car? BMW used to be the preferred choice of the cock but now it seems that all the cocks are buying Audis. (And I've driven an Audi for many years, before the cocks started driving them, and I'll still be driving one after the cocks have moved on to something else.) Who knows?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 15:39 
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Apart from anything else that happened, you probably shouln't be taking a roundabout at a speed where applying the brakes would be "a bad idea".


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 16:15 
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The 'not a good idea to brake' did raise the same question with me as Johnnytheboy above. I have had drivers pull out on me on roundabouts too many times to count and seldom need to do anything other than come off the gas, unless they do so from a static start at whisker counting distance. On the other hand there are the times I stop or nearly stop because it looks like they are not going to and they slam to halt just over the line and glare at you as if you have just insulted them.

That aside is it possible the Zafira driver nearly ran into you from behind or at least had a 'moment' because she was not paying attention and decided to take it out on you? Any idea where she, Zafira woman, came from? There is nothing like a rude awakening to make another driver look for someone else to take their adrenaline rush out on. Perhaps driving instruction should include some advice to learners on recognising their own reaction to being surprised.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 16:25 
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Considering someone pulled out in front, and someone was annoyed enough to actually stop and have a go for going to fast, most likely scenario is that it wasn't 15-20mph.

Would also explain the driver not looking, when they actually did but was not expecting something at speed (a rather common thing for inexpirenced drivers to be suprised by fast comers).

Instead of 2 different people being at fault, maybe it was just one.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 17:27 
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instinctively sounding the horn

You know, I have never sounded the horn by reflex action. Steered, braked, yes - but never tooted.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 20:28 
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I always found that on the older cars where the horn was on the end of a stalk (like the indicator) it was far easier to give awarning "toot" with the flick of a finger(pardon the pun...lol) but most cars these days you have to remove hand from wheeel and strike middle of steering wheel...much more of a movement and waste of milliseconds, sometimes the toot of a horn while covering the brake takes away the need to brake at all.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 01:32 
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Oh look, pratnership's still here with his big wooden spoon...

The driver of the Fiesta did not look to his right at any point. I know this as I was watching him the whole time (the roundabout ahead was clear so nothing to avoid, my primary concern at this point was the Fiesta potentially pulling out into my path - which it did).

The one person at fault was the Fiesta driver. As he was displaying L-plates and had someone sat in the passenger seat then the supervising driver would also have shared blame had a collision occurred.

Also worth noting though that the Fiesta had two L-plates stuck to the rear bumper and none displayed on the front. Had it been displaying an L-plate on the front (as is required) then my attention would have been alerted far sooner. In the event I'd already lifted off the accelerator when I saw the driver failing to look to his right on the approach.

My gripe here isn't with the Fiesta driver. As a learner it was up to the supervising driver to ensure his safety - but I was able to avoid anything more than a sharp horn blast. My gripe is with the woman in the Zafira. Thinking about it she's probably the same type that would drive at 40mph along an NSL road and flash or honk anyone who dared to overtake her. These people are the real danger on the roads today!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:37 
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You drive a 4WD audi right, which'll have ABS ESP etc etc? Is it possible to "destabilise" that at 15-20?

I'm wondering if you could have anticipated the fiesta driver better without the situation going critical, people "carve me up" on roundabouts on a regular basis and it's seldom more exciting than "oh look there goes another one". You can normally tell well in advance if someones gonna stop.

As for the woman, different aspect, she was probably in a huff and you were the trigger. Should've asked her if she had some dishes to clean etc. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 17:15 
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So where was the Zafira driver when the Fiesta pulled out? Behind you or the Fiesta?

On the subject of fault, if you had hit the Fiesta then technically it may have been his fault as the requirement would be for it to give way. You make it clear however that you were not expecting it to stop and while you avoided a collision I suspect you could have done so with much less drama.

It easy when you feel in control of the situation to leave the avoidance to as late as possible just so the other driver knows they almost had an accident. You know, just to try and point out that they should be more careful next time or they should not be so pushy.

Need I add? Been there, done it, got the T shirt!

So, all drivers make mistakes, when you make one do you want the other driver to teach you a lesson you do not really need and maybe get it wrong or just calmly allow for it and forget it. Granted some drivers are very poor or worse deliberately aggressive and pushy, however you really have to try and rise above it and look to go for the safe option. It is not easy and I for one lapse occasionally. If you have an accident or near miss unless you can absolutely tell yourself there was nothing more you could have done to avoid it then some of the fault at least is yours whatever the highway code says. Analyse your own feelings during the incident and ask yourself how much of your reaction to the situation involved irritation or anger towards the Fiesta driver. If using the horn was so instinctive why didn't you sound it to attract the Fiesta drivers attention when you noticed they were not looking at you, I think that what it is supposed to be for.

I am not making a judgement on your driving, we have not met and I was not there, all I am doing is picking up the tone of some of your posts and recognising something about them from my own past.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 17:28 
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Might I also add that - while instinctive - it's probably bad form to peep a learner?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 08:43 
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I do so admire Squirrel 's willingness to set himself up as an Aunt Sally. We learn a lot from the subsequent correspondence and not just about driving.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 17:16 
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toltec wrote:
It easy when you feel in control of the situation to leave the avoidance to as late as possible just so the other driver knows they almost had an accident. You know, just to try and point out that they should be more careful next time or they should not be so pushy.


I must confess to that, occasionally. Often you expect a nip&tuck at certain busy junctions, it's just another guy trying to get somewhere, but when you see someone blissfully careen out with no apparent awareness of your approach it's easy to succumb...

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 17:33 
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Regarding honking the learner - as I said in a previous post he was displaying two L-plates on the rear bumper and nothing on the front. Had he been correctly displaying a front mounted L-plate I almost certainly would have anticipated his lack of observation through inexperience.

The Zafira woman was behind me on the roundabout.

Whilst I don't think with hindsight I'd have destabilised the car at 15-20mph even in the wet I have the mentality of "avoid braking on a bend" firmly implanted in my mind when behind the wheel.

Regarding this comment:

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most cars these days you have to remove hand from wheeel and strike middle of steering wheel...much more of a movement and waste of milliseconds


I have to admit to not using the "IAM wheel shuffle" when taking roundabouts at relatively low speed, in fact I'll be frank here and say I've got this (potentially bad) habit of steering round a roundabout one-handed with my right hand, left hand on the gearstick ready to change up on exit from the roundabout. But that does mean that should the need arise I can clout the horn with my forearm...

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 19:32 
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Squirrel wrote:
The Zafira woman was behind me on the roundabout.


I wonder if she was nearly caught out when you braked to avoid the Fiesta. It would be unusual for another driver to have a rant like that on behalf of another driver unless it was a way of ignoring their own contribution to the 'fault' imho. Though given that according to her you were doing 70mph she was either doing the same or paying so little attention to the road ahead she did not notice the gap between you getting smaller.

Squirrel wrote:
Whilst I don't think with hindsight I'd have destabilised the car at 15-20mph even in the wet I have the mentality of "avoid braking on a bend" firmly implanted in my mind when behind the wheel.


That is another one of the basic driving rules which serves less experienced drivers well, I would hope you have a better understanding of your car, the effects of environment and your abilities than that. You were not travelling at the kind of speed that was using all of your grip budget to maintain cornering or so close the weight transfer shift in using the brakes would put you into a spin were you? You should therefore have some leeway for deceleration and the more speed you lose the more braking you can apply.

Early light braking also gives drivers behind more time to react, most of them are probably just following your tail lights not looking in front of you so waking them up gently is often a good idea.

Sorry if this is egg sucking lessons.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:22 
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Squirrel wrote:
Oh look, pratnership's still here with his big wooden spoon...


You said you had put me on ignore?

Quote:
You make it clear however that you were not expecting it to stop and while you avoided a collision I suspect you could have done so with much less drama.


Exactly, and I have come across that situation many, many times. And I don't even drive a huge amount of miles a year.

If I can brake in my getz fast enough at 15-20, without advanced driving courses, an audi wouldn't have any trouble.

Basically, all the factors point to it most likely not being the estimated 15-20mph.

If the Zafira woman was at fault and angry at you because of it (only possible reason - too close and had to brake hard), then why have a go for going too fast and intimidating the learner?

Assuming the initial account was true - something I highly doubt - the lesson here was act on observation. You said you saw them not look, but still ended up being suprised by them pulling out in front of you, and having to brake hard.

Assuming it wasn't true - probably doing greater than 15-20mph - the lesson is to examine your own driving attitude.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:36 
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I took you off ignore as I suspected (correctly) that you were slating me behind my back.

Now I'm going to make this crystal clear. Nobody here cares about your vendetta against me. All you're doing is making yourself look like a prize idiot (and that isn't an ad hominem attack, I'm stating what I see by your postings and others' reactions to them). If you don't have anything constructive to say then go and click that little X in the title bar of your browser.

Back to the discussion in hand:

Quote:
You were not travelling at the kind of speed that was using all of your grip budget to maintain cornering or so close the weight transfer shift in using the brakes would put you into a spin were you?


With hindsight it may be that subconsciously I wanted to get as close as possible to the Fiesta to ram a particular point home regarding observation (and I'd point out that this would have been a subconscious thing, not a conscious decision!). Again I'd point out that had he been correctly displaying an L-plate on the front of the car (rather than two on the rear) I would more than likely have cut him some slack - we were all learners once!

Given that he was a learner the biggest mistake he made was - again - not correctly displaying this fact. Observation is something that has to be learnt, sometimes the hard way, sometimes it may take a few "brown trouser" moments to learn that yes, you have to look!

My major gripe here is the attitude of the Zafira driver. The Fiesta driver, as a learner, is allowed a mistake!

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 23:48 
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Unfortunately, women are strange unpredictable animals....;-)
i used to travel through a small town every morning at rush hour and every single day there would be women sat at a small island, not proceeding when they had an oportunity to do so and almost always they were giving way to traffic approaching the island on their left (it was a mini island) perhaps this woman did not realise that the fiesta did not have the right of way?...just a possibility.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 23:52 
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Squirrel wrote:

With hindsight it may be that subconsciously I wanted to get as close as possible to the Fiesta to ram a particular point home regarding observation (and I'd point out that this would have been a subconscious thing, not a conscious decision!). Again I'd point out that had he been correctly displaying an L-plate on the front of the car (rather than two on the rear) I would more than likely have cut him some slack - we were all learners once!



It is not always a good idea to let your subconscious deal with driving sometimes, see my 'Two in one day', if you notice it getting things wrong re-educate it. There are a few threads on here which discuss how conscious behaviour becomes subconscious habit as part of the learning process.

Major point - it is not productive to educate other drivers by giving them a scare, they will seldom consider themselves to be at fault anyway. Doing this sort of thing should be a lapse and not a habit and one you ought to view as a fault in your own driving. There is nothing like an ex-smoker for being anti-smoking is there?

The L plates are irrelevant, a driver who passed their test five minutes ago is still not an experienced driver, also another driver making a mistake is not an excuse for you to do the same. Look at it this way, if you let another driver annoy you into driving badly you are at fault, remember the old adage about arguing with an idiot.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 00:18 
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Pratnership wrote:

If the Zafira woman was at fault and angry at you because of it (only possible reason - too close and had to brake hard), then why have a go for going too fast and intimidating the learner?


Hypothetically?

By choosing to leave braking till the last second Squirrel caught her on the hop, but she realised why he had done it and fixated with that as a point of anger.

Perhaps she had been the target of similar action and having a go at Squirrel was delayed revenge.

Whatever the case she let another driver annoy her to the point of degrading her own driving, which is just a really stupid thing to do.

If you admit to yourself that getting annoyed by other drivers is idiotic it is surprising how quickly you stop getting annoyed. ;)

No one likes being called an idiot, and if it is yourself doing so it is hard to refute.

P.S. Don't do this out loud or in public, people will give you strange looks.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:37 
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The one thing I take away from this is an excellent one-line summary that I shall implant whenever appropriate in conversation. It just sums it up. Thanks Toltec.

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If you have an accident or near miss unless you can absolutely tell yourself there was nothing more you could have done to avoid it then some of the fault at least is yours whatever the highway code says
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