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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 18:08 
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:gatso2: From the
MSN News wrote:
http://news.uk.msn.com/cycling-helmets- ... geon394888

Cycling helmets are useless, says leading neurosurgeon

Henry Marsh claimed the compulsory wearing of helmets showed no reduction in bike injuries.

A leading neurosurgeon has branded cycle helmets useless, saying they are "too flimsy" to protect the heads of people he treats after bike accidents, The Daily Telegraph has reported.

Henry Marsh, from St George's Hospital in Tooting, London, said he never wears a helmet and cited a study that suggested wearing one could even heighten the risks to cyclists.

Speaking at the Hay Festival, he said: "I see lots of people in bike accidents and these flimsy little helmets don't help."

Mr Marsh, who said he has been cycling for 40 years, added: "I ride a bike and I never wear a helmet. In the countries where bike helmets are compulsory there has been no reduction in bike injuries whatsoever."

He said a study at the University of Bath found drivers see helmeted cyclists as more sensible and experienced and more predictable on the road.
:scratchchin:

MSN News wrote:
As a result, the study concluded, drivers move their cars closer to the helmeted cyclists while overtaking.
:o

MSN News wrote:
Mr Marsh, who also admitted regularly crossing red lights on his bike,
:loco: :trafficlight: :nono: :stop:
MSN News wrote:
made the comments during a conversation with novelist Ian McEwan whose latest book, Saturday, features a neurosurgeon.

The remarks were discredited by Angie Lee, the chief executive of the Bicycle Helmet Initiative Trust, who said: "This may be his opinion but there are a lot more neurosurgeons and surgeons who would counter that argument."

She told the Telegraph: "My advice would be the same as the Department of Transport's which is that helmets have a place in protecting the head."

A study by the Department of Transport found helmets could prevent 10-16% of cycling deaths, the paper said.

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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 21:31 
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Was an interview on R4 earlier which i guess was triggered by this, neither side came over too well tbh.

I've worn a helmet for almost as long as i've been cycling on the road (20+years), it's second nature.
For the first time a few weeks ago I needed it, the consequences of the impact without don't really bear thinking about.


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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 21:47 
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I'm in two minds on this . ( possibly as having gone over the top of handlebars a few times , but never putting my thick skull in danger. :shock: ). But I must admit to seeing a need for hard hats on work sites ,and for bikers. but again in my old age I can see a very real need for some head protection in the wet, as most cycle braking systems rely ( as in the past ) of rubber on wheel rims .Add water and you don't have friction . Add a downhill junction where the downhill is the minor road and there's a chance of cyclist meeting car ( at the least) and taking a head dive.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:54 
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I don't think that there is any argument against sufficient head protection being a good thing. What the neuro-surgein is arguing is that the protection offered by the current standard "helmets" is little more than useless.
You don't see cycle helmets being worn on work sites.
In an industrial situation a polystyrene box on the head is called a bump-cap. But insisting that cyclists wear bump-caps to doesn't have the same emotional resonance as insisting they wear helmets

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 20:38 
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I don't think that the eminent neuro-surgeon is denying the effectiveness of adequate head protection for cyclists. Rather he thinks that the present polystyrene shell are of little use in any non trivial accident.

Those so-called helmets would not meet any industrial standard of helmet and could only be presented as bump-caps. But insisting that "bump-caps save lives" lacks the ringing conviction of "helmets save lives" :D

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 21:08 
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ed_m really sorry to hear of your incident - are you ok ?

The original article :
Cycle helmets are useless, says brain surgeon
Leading neurosurgeon tells the Hay Festival cycling helmets are 'too flimsy' to be beneficial
Neurosurgeon Henry Marsh has said that cycle helmets were useless
By Sarah Knapton, Science Correspondent 9:22PM BST 30 May 2014

A leading neurosurgeon has controversially claimed that cyclists who wear helmets are wasting their time.
Henry Marsh, who works at St George’s Hospital in Tooting, London, said that many of his patients who have been involved in bike accidents have been wearing helmets that were ‘too flimsy’ to be beneficial.

He made the comments while speaking at the Hay Festival during a discussion with Ian McEwan, whose 2005 novel Saturday featured a neurosurgeon.
He cited evidence from the University of Bath that suggests that wearing a helmet may even put cyclists at greater risk. The research showed that drivers get around 3 inches closer to cyclists who wear helmets because they perceive them as safer.

He said: “I ride a bike and I never wear a helmet. In the countries where bike helmets are compulsory there has been no reduction in bike injuries whatsoever.
“I see lots of people in bike accidents and these flimsy little helmets don’t help.”
Mr Marsh said that he had been riding his bike for 40 years, wearing a cowboy hat, and had only fallen off once.
“I have been cycling for 40 years and have only been knocked off once. I wear a cowboy hat and cowboy boots. I look completely mad."

Cyclists travel around 3.1 billion miles each year in Britain. Lights and reflectors are a legal obligation after dark, and reflective jackets an increasingly common sight.

READ: Why you should always wear a helmet when cycling, regardless of what the research may suggest
But helmets are not compulsory in the UK, unlike in Australia and parts of the US, yet the government encourages cyclists to wear one.

Research conducted by Dr Ian Walker, a professor of traffic psychology at the University of Bath, showed that motorists drove around 8cm closer when overtaking cyclists with helmets.
He suggested that drivers think helmeted cyclists are more sensible, predicable and experienced, so therefore the driver doesn't need to give them much space when overtaking.
Non-helmeted cyclists, especially non helmeted "women" are less predictable and experienced, according to this study and so motorists give them more room.
However, Mr Marsh's comments are likely to anger cycling safety campaigners, who believe that helmets provide essential protection on Britain's busy and narrow roads.

James Cracknell, the Olympic rowing gold medalist, was nearly killed while cycling in 2010 after he was hit by a petrol tanker.
He has said that he only survived the accident because he had been wearing a helmet and has described those who do not wear one as "selfish" as their actions can impact their loved ones.
"From a personal point of view I would be dead if I hadn't worn a helmet," he said. "A wing mirror smashed into my skull at 70mph.
"There is no downside to wearing a helmet except having messy hair. And you have to remember that eight out of ten kids who have cycling accidents are not on the road.
"Even if you don't care enough about yourself to wear a helmet other people care about you."

A Department of Transport study has shown that helmets could prevent 10-16 per cent of cyclist fatalities, although this was also an estimate based on a small study.
Angie Lee, Chief Executive of the Bicycle Helmet Initiative Trust said: “I hope he is going to take responsibility for the cyclist who gets injured because they take their helmet off following his comments.
“This may be his opinion but there are a lot more neurosurgeons and surgeons who would counter that argument.
“My advice would be the same as the Department of Transport’s which is that helmets have a place in protecting the head.”
Marsh, who retires in March, also admitted jumping red lights to get ahead of the traffic.
“It’s my life at risk,” he said, ‘So I regularly cross over red lights.”


This is based on psychology and how we approach situations and perception of hazards.
If people leave less space to cyclists wearing helmets are they more involved in incidents ?
Also an interesting question would be to ask if those who wear helmets take more 'chances' because they feel safer.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 21:24 
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Two follow up links are provided :
Helmet Related Statistics from Many Sources (USA)
http://www.helmets.org/stats.htm
and
Head injuries rising despite helmets (NY) :
http://bicycleuniverse.info/eqp/helmets-nyt.html
An interesting point within this link :
[urlhttp://bicycleuniverse.info/eqp/helmets-nyt.html]BicycleUniverse[/url] wrote:
Promoting bicycle helmets without teaching riders about traffic laws or safe riding practices can encourage a false sense of security, according to several risk experts. Helmets may create a sort of daredevil effect, making cyclists feel so safe that they ride faster and take more chances, said Dr. Mayer Hillman, a senior fellow emeritus at the Policy Studies Institute in London.

and
Insurance Institute for Highway Safety
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics?topicName=Bicycles

The 'chance' of being better off in an accident is possible. Like with the C1 helmet debate the design of the scooter hinders the occupant in an accident (but that is another topic). However the helmet /skid lid may keep some injuries at bay and that is good but the Stats they are implying isn't that much greater overall. So it's more about what injuries one may sustain in the event of an incident. No one of course knows what event will occur.
I like that it is our choice when cycling whether to or not as it makes it down to one's own decision & responsibility as to what we think is best for us. We can consider the expected dangers and assess what is best.
In the heat of recent weeks overheating might become a bigger danger than the 'chance' of a spill so taking it off might be the better responsible action. But it's a personal choice for everyone to make.

Do those that wear helmets and 'ride-out' into the path more, because they have felt that (some) vehicles pass them 'too' closely. [edit to add], have more accidents? :scratchchin:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 13:34 
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Yes, I too hope you came off okay ed, so to speak. (Double meaning but you know what I mean).

I think the same as DCB, that he didn’t mean the wearing of helmets in itself was useless, but how they are made etc. That said, I find it hard to believe they are entirely “useless” because something, anything, has to be better than nothing I would have thought.

Being folically challenged like wot I am, and quite tall, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve bonked my head on something and if I’d had so much as a cardboard Kippah on it would have saved me turning the air blue. :censored:

One of the worst I remember was getting something out of a friend’s car from the boot and, unbeknown to me, the gas rod thingies which hold the boot up weren’t working. So as I went to heave a box out with both arms the boot had dropped. As I pulled my head up I cracked it on the catch interlocking doobrie inside the boot lid. :furious: Volvo weren’t very safety conscious there I can tell you; model 343. Would it have killed them to at least put some rubber edging or something around the damn thing!

With regard to motorcycle helmets, I think it has been conclusively proved to save lives and limit injury. So it follows that the same ought to be true of cycle helmets. As with so many things, it’s giving people the freedom we all want verses what is best for us. And then, more often than not, politics enters the mix. :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:38 
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Big Tone wrote:
With regard to motorcycle helmets, I think it has been conclusively proved to save lives and limit injury. So it follows that the same ought to be true of cycle helmets.


With respect ,Tone, that is not correct. Motorcycle helmets and cycle caps are completely different things and extending lessons learned from one to the other is questionable

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Last edited by dcbwhaley on Wed Jun 18, 2014 22:57, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:05 
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I am (thankfully) fine, although my phone also came off badly so i had a 2mile walk home with concussion risk & possible broken wrist.
(gave me justification to upgrade my garmin so it now links by bluetooth to my phone and allows my to share my position with the wife when i'm out riding, so at least she knows where to look).

The thin shell of the helmet rather trivialises the impact (images below), maybe the cracked foam above the specialized helps. Without, those indentations would be in my skull and the impact that cracked the helmet absorbed/distributed concentrated in a rather small area. Hard to say the extent of injuries had I not been wearing it, a severe blow to the head at very least, maybe not walking home for sure.

Wearing a helmet is second nature for me and always has been so I can't honestly say it's presence has any impact on how I ride and I'd be surprised if anyone could conclusively prove it has an adverse effect on a majority of cyclists.

KSI, A&E & Road stats are never going to accurately represent the number of cyclists that have had an off or minor incident where a helmet has meant the difference between a nasty bump on the head and cycling home with a bit of road rash. If your accident/incident is serious enough to make it into the stats chances are the helmet is only a minor mitigation.

Just my tuppence.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:35 
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Sounds bad enough all the same ed and could have been so much worse :o I'm becomming more chicken, I have to say, I gave up cycling into work about three years ago. It's just too dangerous and half the drivers are retards.

DCB. .. I did say "ought" and I stand by that because, again, it has to be better to have 'something' covering your head than absolutely nothing if your head suffers an impact. That's logic and common sense to me, so I don't understand your criticism :?

Whether that 'something' should be made compulsory is another matter. I wear a helmet by choice usually, depending where I am. I remember the early helmets some wore in the Tour de France; like strips of padding. Better than nothing, I would say. They certainly didn't wear them as a fashion accessory.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 21:11 
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The DH (down hill) helmets are more substantial and can be 'full', that is cover the chin area too and more like the shape of a motorcycle helmet.

I do think there can be more technology inputted into helmets, and their protection increased, but surely this could have already happened - so why hasn't it?
Surely the construction knowledge from the motor-cycling helmet could be in part added to a cycle helmet, but, might this then make it too heavy and a burden to the cyclist and increase in muscle strain etc.? There have to be issues with this. A lighter helmet that is used often and help prevent some injuries is perhaps the 'balance of aid' used than a heavier better helmet that wouldn't then be used?
Aren't most things a balance of one things against another? We all think differently to a degree so have formed different opinions. Thus making products vs advantage can sometimes be difficult. Getting those products through Gov approval or Law, can be even harder.

Clearly motorcyclists travel at a higher impact and so are more than likely to crash at a higher impact. Thus the more involved design.
Should peds wear helmets in case of an accident - that would likely have saved a few lives too ? But this would have to be (an unacceptable) Law before most wear such an item.

I like the equine improvements to body protection that become like an air bag in leaving the saddle, so maybe something like that will be seen in helmets soon ?

[DCB & all others, please don't say that other people's thoughts are non-sense. That attacks the poster and not their comment and is ah-hominem please edit your post appropriately, thank you.] It will not be tolerated.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 21:51 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Should peds wear helmets in case of an accident



I'm sure Ive posted this before.

If anybody should wear helmets, it's people driving cars...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07o-TASvIxY

Also:

http://roaddangerreductionforum.files.w ... metsv6.jpg


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 23:00 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
[DCB & all others, please don't say that other people's thoughts are non-sense. That attacks the poster and not their comment and is ah-hominem please edit your post appropriately, thank you.] It will not be tolerated.


Extremely sorry if I have offended Tony and I will gladly edit the post. But, in that I was denigrating what he said rather than attacking him personally, it was not ad hom.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 23:02 
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[quote="weepej"
I'm sure Ive posted this before.

If anybody should wear helmets, it's people driving cars...
[/quote]

And, considering the number of whip-lash injuries recorded, everyone in a car should wear a neck brace.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 23:19 
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An ex-colleague of mine does a lot of accident investigation and expert witnessing work. He's a materials scientist. One of his jobs was looking at a pedal cycle rider fatality. This started out as a practical joke (loosen the front wheel and have him pull a wheelie - £250 pretty much guaranteed on YBF if shown! Tragically, and at very low speed, he went over the handlebars, hit his head directly on the tarmac and died. One observation he made was that American cycle helmets tested to their DOT standards offered significantly better impact protection that our European ones tested to the European EN standards and CE marked.

From a persona point of view (and especially in this weather!) a motorcycle helmet just isn't really an option for a pedal cyclist (well, not one that gets as sweaty as I do)!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 09:27 
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E question to which I cannot get an answer is: why do we single out two wheel road users as being negligent for nit wearing helmets when it is clear that the entire population would be safer if they wore helmets? A friend of mine tripped up, fell down stairs and suffered serious, life changing head injuries. Had he been wearing a helmet he would not have been so badly injured. So should I be lobbying that every one who descends stairs should wear a helmet?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 09:49 
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It's down to the laws of the land rather than right or wrong.

You will see up to four men, women and children on a motorbike wearing no helmets in India, whereas a minor traffic infringement in Switzerland will result in a fine of thousands - proportionate to ones income.

Where does anyone or any country draw the line? Well, in this country they've drawn it as compulsory to wear helmets on motorbikes but not pedestrians or cyclists, (yet).

There is a balance of course. Most legislation, if not all, is proportional to the risk and commonality of any danger but also our freedom. By and large, I believe in free choice. But as a civilized society we have a duty of care not to cultivate or incentivise maniacs. (This made sense in my head at time of writing) :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 22:47 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
E question to which I cannot get an answer is: why do we single out two wheel road users as being negligent for nit wearing helmets when it is clear that the entire population would be safer if they wore helmets? A friend of mine tripped up, fell down stairs and suffered serious, life changing head injuries. Had he been wearing a helmet he would not have been so badly injured. So should I be lobbying that every one who descends stairs should wear a helmet?



Tut,Tut DCB. Proof reading perhaps,needed. Old English saying is not to throw rocks at neighbours house when you have green house out back .

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 21:54 
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Big Tone wrote:
It's down to the laws of the land rather than right or wrong.

You will see up to four men, women and children on a motorbike wearing no helmets in India



Yes, and entire hospitals devoted to caring for people who fall off motorbikes....


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