Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Fri Oct 19, 2018 03:46

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 69 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 00:42 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7354
Location: Highlands
Cyclists filmed jumping red lights in London taxi drivers' hidden camera footage
Signal: The cyclist in the white top rushes past another who stopped at the lights

Mark Blunden - Published: 28 November 2013 - Updated: 21:33, 28 November 2013

Cyclists were filmed jumping red lights by hidden cameras set up by London black cab drivers.

Their footage shows 194 out of 364 riders went through stop signals during the rush hour — just over half.

The Licensed Taxi Drivers Association said it set up hidden cameras after a series of “near misses and confrontations” between its members and cyclists. The association said cabbies put two cameras at what they said were “average” crossroads in the capital.

One was the junction of Hackney Road, Queensbridge Street and Horatio Street in Hackney, the other at the junction of Fortess Road, Highgate Road and Kentish Town Road in Camden.

Cyclists whizz past as a woman pushes a buggy across when the green man is showing The LTDA, which has 10,000 members, said each camera filmed between 7.30am and 8.30am at the end of September. In Hackney, 108 out of 170 cyclists jumped the lights, while in Camden, 86 out of 194 bikes rode through at red. LTDA general secretary Steve McNamara said two hour-long versions of the footage were available “ 100 per cent unedited” on YouTube.

He said: “We are constantly hearing from the cycling lobbying groups that cyclists who ride on the pavement, weave in and out of traffic and fail to stop at red lights are a small minority or a small rogue element. This was in stark contrast to what we and most Londoners witness every day.” Mr McNamara, who cycles in the rush hour daily, added: “What we found shocked even us. We’re not anti-cycling, we’re against the unlawful cycling brigade.”

Two cyclists jump a red light at the same time Anyone caught jumping a red light risks a £50 penalty ticket from the police. In an online survey of 1,600 cyclists by the Institute of Advanced Motorists, 57 per cent admitted jumping a red light at least once, with 14 per cent doing it regularly. The reason they gave was that they felt safer getting ahead of the traffic flow.

Mike Cavenett, spokesman for the London Cycling Campaign, said: “ Evidence shows that red light jumping causes a tiny proportion of collisions. This view is backed up by police data showing that only two per cent of London’s cycling collisions are attributable to cyclists going through red lights, while the same data shows that 68 per cent of cyclist-motorist crashes in central London have their main cause attributable to bad driving.”
It would be interesting to see how many motorised vehicles ran the red lights in the same period, and identifying those who 'just run' as opposed to deliberately approach a red light and just run it as if it wasn't there!
It is common now to see cyclists going where-ever they seem to choose. This is a learned acceptable 'habit' rapidly becoming totally normal and acceptable. With no reprimands issued it's not long before it's 'normal' and this is what's happened with lights.
Equally the cyclists positioning is far too 'selfish', they say if's for their safety but in many cases I have seen it is pure bad riding plain and simple. It allows for no one else and pushes everyone around them if that is even possible. This is not good for road safety as they are making themselves vulnerable and placing themselves often in grave danger.
Often I see a rider take a 'primary position' at the lights when a left position or even the occasional right of L1 but left in L2 is good but they are in L1 or worse the middle position of L2 totally un-necessarily! Just disgraceful. it slows the rest of the traffic totally un-necessarily so less vehicles get through the lights and helps to add to the congestion!

I heard today that with the extra Police on the London roads today that many road users were booked. (related topic here - in a minute)

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 21:57 
Offline
User

Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 22:50
Posts: 3267
Ha ha, if you think cyclists slow down cars in our towns and cities you've obviously not seen, er, the massive queues of cars!

Cars slow me down when I'm on my bike, not the other way round.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 22:11 
Offline
User

Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 22:50
Posts: 3267
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
It would be interesting to see how many motorised vehicles ran the red lights in the same period, and identifying those who 'just run' as opposed to deliberately approach a red light and just run it as if it wasn't there!


When I see cyclists go through red lights they treat the junction as a normal junction, they approach, look and go if it's clear, in the main.

Cyclist going through junctions on red lights is not a major safety issue on our roads, they don't kill or injure people, and they don't get killed themselves.

I rarely see a driver drive up to a red light and drive through it like some people on a bike might. It does happen, but rarely, I see people on scooters do it more often, but it's still rare.

What I do see is drivers of cars jumping a red (I see this a lot in London). When done they are often gunning the light at the last second, at speed, and they don't do it carefully; they have about 30% of the visibility a cyclist has and jump at 20mph +, not the five mph you'll see cyclists doing it.

I sometimes go through an amber that I probably could've stopped for but choose not to, and see three or four cars come after me, and they've jumped the red.

So lots of cyclists jump red lights, and there's not a major problem, shouldn't that mean it should be made legal in your books?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 22:18 
Offline
User

Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 22:50
Posts: 3267
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Equally the cyclists positioning is far too 'selfish', they say if's for their safety but in many cases I have seen it is pure bad riding plain and simple. It allows for no one else and pushes everyone around them if that is even possible. This is not good for road safety as they are making themselves vulnerable and placing themselves often in grave danger.


Here's current advice to cyclist in London.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/cycling/14798.aspx

Quote:
As a cyclist, you should always ride away from the gutter. If the road is too narrow for vehicles to pass you safely, it may be safer to ride towards the middle of the lane to prevent dangerous overtaking by other vehicles.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 23:21 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 13:54
Posts: 1711
Location: NW Kent
I was walking towards Leicester Square on Saturday evening and saw one of the cycle rickshaws pass a line of traffic by using a solid bordered hatched area then pause briefly before cycling straight through a red light on a pedestrian crossing. There was also a cyclist waiting at the light who interestingly appeared to follow the rickshaw once the example had been set. A few seconds later the light changed and the cars set off and queued up behind the rickshaw.

Did either of the cyclists do anything dangerous? No, the rickshaw rider clearly paused and checked for pedestrians and there were none crossing or even particularly close. In fact it would have been quite safe for the cars to drive through as well, except to their licenses of course.

I regularly see vehicles jumping red lights and the worst that normally happens is that it stops a couple of extra cars turning right. There will be instances where this leads to an incident of some kind, but given the scale of the non-compliance relatively rare.

It almost makes you think that road users are making their own decisions about what is safe in the face of a system that is not really working. We have plenty of sets of lights where everything sits on red for 10, 15 or more seconds so it is hardly surprising that some choose to use a few extra seconds of access to the road.

Perhaps at least part of the problem is not the cyclists and drivers, but the setup of the lights themselves? Is it a chicken and egg issue, did the wait times extend due to light jumpers or are people jumping lights because the pauses are too long?

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 02:25 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7354
Location: Highlands
weepej wrote:
Ha ha, if you think cyclists slow down cars in our towns and cities you've obviously not seen, er, the massive queues of cars!
It's not what I think - it's what I have observed first hand.

weepej wrote:
So lots of cyclists jump red lights, and there's not a major problem, shouldn't that mean it should be made legal in your books?
I have not quoted all that relates to this last section ... as it is only a couple of posts earlier.

In answer no. It is not the actions of a competent and responsible person. They are the actions of people who are deliberately disobeying the rules and I do see people regularly clash with those who have deliberately jumped the light.
Cyclists have died doing such manoeuvres so I cannot see how you can possibly think that this is in any way safe.

I do agree that the red light sequences have frustrated and irritated probably the vast majority of road users and congested the streets.
Habits can form from a chance taken one day and before long it has become commonplace, but this doesn't make it right.
Imagine if ALL drivers of all vehicles just started to ignore all the red lights?

When a cyclist has ONLY to get off the bike, walk across the road and then get back on the bike, it is un-excusable.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 02:38 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7354
Location: Highlands
weepej wrote:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/cycling/14798.aspx
TfL wrote:
As a cyclist, you should always ride away from the gutter. If the road is too narrow for vehicles to pass you safely, it may be safer to ride towards the middle of the lane to prevent dangerous overtaking by other vehicles.
and what you missed this bit ?
TfL wrote:
Cyclists
Do not cross the second stop line while the traffic signal is red. Contravening a traffic signal is against the law, and could result in a £50 fine.
and
TfL wrote:
Cyclists, stay back
Stay safe by staying back behind lorries and other large vehicles as they may not be able to see you clearly.

We always tell people to obey the rules of the road at all times.
So are you genuinely suggesting then that we should all pick and choose which rules to obey and which to dis-obey?

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 02:55 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7354
Location: Highlands
Toltec .. this observation is really down to a mass disobedience by many cyclists.
Whilst we could all decide which rules to obey the reality is that the roads need predictable behaviours and obedient people to make them safer. I agree that we need proper and appropriate rules too.
If the rules need reviewing and re-assessing then that is another thing.
There has been much campaigning against the length of red lights and the change that all pedestrians can go at any side of the junction at once than as previously, cross on only one or two roads than all 'arms' of the junctions at once.
Our psychology is interrupted if no one appears to be making progress. Whilst we tolerate and accept people need to cross the road, at 3am when the lights turn red for no reason that that it is a bad system where a programmer 'thinks' that the light ought to change just in case is very frustrating.

We all know that frustration and inattention are the two prime causes of accidents so these issues must be addressed and properly sorted out to reduce this bad effect.

Hypothetically ...
So what if we said that a cyclist ought to be clubbed with the 'pedestrian' and only allowed on pavements and never the road?
Should we then also say that all mopeds and motorbikes ought to be given all the cyclists lanes and also allowed on the pavements too when the roads offer them no 'route through'?
How far ought it to be taken ?

People are very good at 'gaining an advantage' when they can. In many ways it's how we as the human race have managed to achieve so very much.
I dare say that at some future point new rules and regs will be altered or introduced but until then the rules must be obeyed.
There seems to be little regulation for cyclists, we have great one's and down right appalling one's.

I like the idea (with few exceptions) that all traffic lights be off after say 8pm or some such.
Nearly all roundabout traffic lights ought to be removed or only on for very limited time periods. All could be resolved with 'intelligent' systems or better yet left perhaps like the French so on yellow all night (waste of electricity though!) or just by being off, so that all the riders and drivers have to think about when it is safe to proceed. :)

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 21:06 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 19:08
Posts: 3428
Quote:
I like the idea (with few exceptions) that all traffic lights be off after say 8pm or some such.
Nearly all roundabout traffic lights ought to be removed or only on for very limited time periods. All could be resolved with 'intelligent' systems or better yet left perhaps like the French so on yellow all night (waste of electricity though!) or just by being off, so that all the riders and drivers have to think about when it is safe to proceed. :)


Yes, the majority of traffic lights in this country, apart from city and large town centres, are virtually pointless for about 20 hours of the day and MAYBE are useful for the other 4 hours a day at peak traffic.
We need to restrict their useage otherwise I can imagine traffic light revolts starting to happen within this country. Where i live they are putting them on more and more junctions and islands that just don't need them and i'm sure that it encourages people to flaunt their operation.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 21:38 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9246
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Now the idea of traffic lights being time controlled would be nice, especially those on motorway islands, where the default position is green from motorway and all others red . Same with some town centre lights and pedestrian crossings. Wonder if our cash strapped county men have seen the savings in terms of power, where the lights are the old fashioned filament lamps . The light output seems similar to that of the rail system,which uses a double filament 35w lamp in each position . I've checked on one crossroads locally and the total is about 11 =385 w , about 9.25 KWH in a day. Just on one x roads

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 22:22 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 13:54
Posts: 1711
Location: NW Kent
The idea of grouping people cycling and walking is interesting in that what the cyclists appear to be doing in the video is what pedestrians do at crossings. If we ignore for the moment the different legal requirements they are both deciding that just because the light is red they do not need to stop and can proceed safely.

Of course their decision may well be wrong, but fundamentally there will be some evaluation of the risks involved and up until recently legal repercussions have been much less likely than for drivers. Rightly or wrongly they choosing to break a rule which they, possibly, consider inappropriate or inadequate.

The junction in the video is a T not X and the roadway is quite wide so I can see that a cyclist would feel that there is room to both accommodate them and a car coming out of the road to the right. While this may seem reasonable what they are not doing is allowing for their effect on the other traffic, a driver pulling out to turn right may not be expecting a cyclist to be there and this could cause a reaction leading to a collision. The other obvious effect is the way this casual ignoring of the rules serves to reduce any respect between people using different modes of transport.

It could be more interesting to see why cyclists are behaving this way and why they think it is appropriate to do so.

The flashing amber on traffic lights has always seemed like an excellent idea, I think it could be extended to flashing red too. Amber is a give way and red would be the equivalent of a stop sign.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 00:27 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 19:08
Posts: 3428
Quote:
The flashing amber on traffic lights has always seemed like an excellent idea,


Unfortunately, the control freaks are now phasing out flashing amber on pedestrian crossings, as it is deemed that the motorist is not capable of judging whether it is safe to proceed with a flashing amber and the motorist must be controlled further by waiting another 20 seconds on a red light after the last pedestrian has long since disappeared over the horizon.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 00:34 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 19:08
Posts: 3428
https://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=5 ... 12,45,,0,0


https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.681039 ... =12,0,,0,0

The above two over used and obviously dangerously congested roundabouts, are the latest victims of the control freaks in these cash strapped times, that mean that day centres must be closed and front line services limited but traffic lights must be bred to stave off the population extinction of this popular beast.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 01:07 
Offline
User

Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 22:50
Posts: 3267
graball wrote:
as it is deemed that the motorist is not capable of judging whether it is safe to proceed with a flashing amber


There's no judging at all involved in a flashing amber light.

If it's flashing amber you are not allowed to enter the crossing if pedestrians are still on it.

This is massively ignored by all road users on a massive scale.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 01:11 
Offline
User

Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 22:50
Posts: 3267
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
weepej wrote:
Ha ha, if you think cyclists slow down cars in our towns and cities you've obviously not seen, er, the massive queues of cars!
It's not what I think - it's what I have observed first hand.


Are you kidding?

When I cycle in London cars slow me down.

I travel at 16mph average speed in London on my bike during rush hour, in my car I travel at 9mph average.

Cyclists do not slow cars down.

Cars slow cars down (and cars slow cyclists down).

To add, if all the cyclists decided to leave their bikes at home and drive their cars into work what do you think would happen next?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 01:13 
Offline
User

Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 22:50
Posts: 3267
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
So are you genuinely suggesting then that we should all pick and choose which rules to obey and which to dis-obey?


No.

I don't cycle through red lights, why do you appear to be making the prejudiced assertion that all cyclists do?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 01:28 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9246
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
weepej wrote:

I don't cycle through red lights, why do you appear to be making the prejudiced assertion that all cyclists do?
Quote:
In Hackney, 108 out of 170 cyclists jumped the lights, while in Camden, 86 out of 194 bikes rode through at red.


Good enough - 64% in hackney. 64% in Camden . Or will you ANSWER THAT , saying the NO cyclists run reds.

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 08:55 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 19:08
Posts: 3428
Quote:
When I cycle in London cars slow me down.

I travel at 16mph average speed in London on my bike during rush hour, in my car I travel at 9mph average.

Cyclists do not slow cars down.

Cars slow cars down (and cars slow cyclists down).


HELLO....Earth to planet Weepy....there is life on earth outside of London, you know!

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 08:57 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 19:08
Posts: 3428
[quoteThere's no judging at all involved in a flashing amber light.

If it's flashing amber you are not allowed to enter the crossing if pedestrians are still on it.

This is massively ignored by all road users on a massive scale.
][/quote]

Again, planet weepy must be a far more dangerous place than this Britain that I live in.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:36 
Offline
User

Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 19:43
Posts: 86
graball wrote:
Quote:
The flashing amber on traffic lights has always seemed like an excellent idea,

ink
Unfortunately, the control freaks are now phasing out flashing amber on pedestrian crossings, as it is deemed that the motorist is not capable of judging whether it is safe to proceed with a flashing amber and the motorist must be controlled further by waiting another 20 seconds on a red light after the last pedestrian has long since disappeared over the horizon.

Wrong.

Newer crossings have pedestrian detectors. Assuming they're working properly, the lights should turn green very shortly after the last pedestrian has stepped off the crossing.

And I do see a lot of problems with flashing amber, especially where slow pedestrians and wide roads are concerned. Too many road users seem to think flashing amber means, "take off if the part of the pedestrian crossing directly in front of your bonnet is clear".


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 69 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.262s | 11 Queries | GZIP : Off ]