Safe Speed Forums

absolutely.... which is why i wrote what i did !

sorry, missed that...

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

What always amazes me ist that a cyclist will ride up the inside of the large vehicle.. despite the fumes from its huge engine. Apart from the fact that when you are alongside these vehicles in a car even .. you feel a little vulnerable.

I give the example of the motorway jam.


There I was in L1 a bit back. Road works

Lorry crawling beside me in L2. His wheels seem a lot bigger than my car und it has a claustrophic effect from this size und the fumes. You note the size.

So I cannot quite fathom why a cyclist would even consider riding up alongside such when at traffic lights? Especially when many of them complain about car pollution in the first place.

But then do drivers/bikers understand the needs of the big truck driver.




By the way ed. You should have replied to Charles differently .. und explained your comment as it can be read either way. You have to read it three times to estaablish you mean the cyclist und not the sign. Charles was stating to dcb that the signs on the truck mean very little when they investigate the scenes.

It belong perhaps in Near Miss or Trucking fora.. but I was on slip road exiting. Ahead .. big truck .. indicating to turn left. Positioned in L2 as it was a fairly tight turn


I wait. Biker undertake me on hard shoulder. Storm up the slip road. Now you could argue the trucky would have seen in mirrors.. but this guy had made all his checks und was pulling out

The biker then realised he was not going to make it. He hit the brakes .. He fell off but jumped und rolled out of danger thankfully whilst his bike went under the lorry. - sliding out the other side - hitting the verge und then the barrier.

This occur last September when I commute to big town to supervise some trials going on in one of the hospitals there. I did intend to post to Near Miss or Improve or Motorbiking to chatter about what might be learned from that incident once dust settled or it appear in the paper. (It did not get reported in the press as not that serious )

The trucky bluntly stated he checked his mirrors und was setting off before the biker arrived. I verified this in witness statement to his employer/insurers und that his indicators were clearly visible to me as I exited onto the slip road.

How this fit into this thread?

Well - in how easy it ist for a truck driver not to see a cyclist despite the cyclist or driver believing that he can.


Would I ride or even drive up the inside of a truck intending to go straight on or turn left. No., never.

I do wonder though if some junctions can be modified as a fair few are back home to allow the cycle lane to filter left without conflicting with any other traffic at lights. I find it a little strange that cycle lanes such as they exist in UK are not engineered this way..

I do not know this junction .. Going off the 27 seconds of alleged visibility per the CCTV cam... that ist rather a long time. Driver will have made the routine glances .. but perhaps did not double check to see where the cyclist rode to.

If I had ridden to the side und then considered how vulnerable I could be.. I may dismount und walk to pavement. No shame in that. Or ring the bell to let the person know I am around und he may not realise I am there.

Just thoughts as to how we as cyclists may try to avoid incident if we do happen to misjudge the distance or the gap in front of the truck when trying to get to the head of the queue. Perhaps this junction need the ASL too?

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Thats the word I was looking for. I see many cyclists, I don't think many of them understand what it means, or at least understand how it applies to them.



Not if the bike was a lane removed... wingmirrors only give limited degree field of vision, normally focused on adjacent lane.



What gets me with these people is at what point do they think "why is that car slowing?" I've seen a couple of near misses on zebra crossings where a bike or moped, who can't see past my van has just blitzed past me as I've slowed for crossers only to nearly wipe someone out



That would necessitate people who understand traffic flow to design junctions, and that won't work because they'd argue for effective and safe mass movement of traffic ahead of politically correct sensibilities.

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

I edit to post to you that I also agreed 100% with your post as did IG as he also commended you there.





ben //should let Wildy speak for herself. But she'having a "toes up".


I think you know .. we . well .. we are expecting twins. Oh yes.. both of us are full of excitement at the prospect of new lives .. and also in some state of worry. Wildy' s practical take .. is more .. "can she cope with the breastfeeding and weaning" and mine is more .. can my wife's health stand the pressures of all this involves.

Now why I mention this.. I feel my concerns may make me a bit short tempered and a bit snappily short when I reply to folk here. Bear with me. I am over the moon one moment and worried about my wife the next.. And she? ("let me get on with it Liebchen,..I will nut and knob you later" )


GULP!

But I am concerned for my wife who just demeans me entirely by just taking life as it;'s chucked at her. I am just a mere male here. Full of the compassion which women never understand ;:wink:



anyway






I know exactly what you mean. I do know Charles (IG_ does). I know that person in the flesh. He cares about folk sincerely. As do I.

But some cannot see this. Their loss.

If their English was perfect - they would have an edge. But it's woefully short of a C in the old CSE requirement and I asked my teacher sisters to give me a professional opinion on this. They mark A Levels .. and despite all the press negatives - I will still say the exam passes on most required merits.







Not if the bike was a lane removed... wingmirrors only give limited degree field of vision, normally focused on adjacent lane.
[/quote]


Wildy rides a motorbike. A top range Ducati. I do not like her to do so.. but accept she is safe all the same.

I am old fashioned and biking never appealed to me. But I accept my wife's love of her motorbike all the same.

But this also highlights the problem which a trucker driver has. I cannot condemn that truck driver even though a person died here. I accept his family want revenge.. but revenge is not justice .. and that driver is also suffering a severe trauma. I may whine/lament about the stupidity of mankind at times -but I have equal compassion in my reality of life beyond a caustically dry comment on the internet.. that real folk out there are traumatised to an extent which you can only understand if hit by trauma. The Swiss lost Ferdl. I nearly lost my wife. I have treated folk in A&E in the past and IG has vomited on the spot and dealt with folk completely traumatised here.


I think collectively then that we know a bit more than most keyboard warriors on that basis and we understand the desire for revenge on the one side and the objective need forcold justice on the other.

No one can actually understand if they have never experienced this .. and whilst I feel very much for the late Ian P and his family... I also have a kind and sincere thought for the lorry driver here.

Unlike some so far.

But then they want a pat on the back for their posts and I am not giving one.. nor does Charles.


OK Ed did make a good point.. but we want clarifiation on "most cases" as I see no logic in placing myself in such danger at any junction where a really large truck is there.

Now call me acoward if you wish. I happen to enjoy being a Papa and want to play with grandchildren.






I know.


There are countless which never appear in the press but which feature in medic stats. (Peer reviewed and thus cut ice

Our lurks and trolls hate the fact that Oxford Uni upheld all that last year






aH.. PERHAPS the clockwork choccy cuckoo clocks understand a bit more than the UK does, The peer reviewed stats on their end seem to hold some water in this respect.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

More later.. when I get a spare moment.

I promised a report over an IAM obervation from hell. I need to get over it first though.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

i'm reluctant to make a hard and fast rule of it.
for sure there are alot of reasons for not going down the inside of a large vehicle (any vehicle to some extent).
but so long as i'm confident i know those reasons i can't say there will never be a situation i'll make a concious choice to do so.

like many things i guess, rigid speed enforcement, going through red lights, not overtaking at slip roads... there's alot of sense in it.... but a decision that in a few circumstances one might choose to override.

The court will be looking at the whole incident though. The proscecution alleges that the cyclist would have been in view for 27 seconds per CCTV footage from a shop. Police may well have reconstructed to verify - but even then - it may not prove negligence beyond reasoned doubt.,

The driver's defence will be his road position, indicating an intention to turn left and general advice from the Highway Code as already quoted . The prosecution will try to establish how reasonably foreseeable - from the trucky's point of vision - this incident was - given he probably saw him approaching at some point when stationary at the lights

I think the cyclist perhaps intended to continue straight ahead at these lights and the court will also look at how far his own actions contributed to the tragic outcome. Umm.. that's what the courts do.

Now there are next to no excuses for either driving or riding up the inside of a large vehicle which is indicating to turn left at any junction. They simply need the space - and we have lost count of the number of collsions due to such cirumstances.

Not pleasant to attend to - by the way.

However..

If I, as cyclist, am already in poll posiion at the lights and the lorry stops beside me.. I try to make eye contact and ring the bicycle bell to alert him. If I feel myself to be in serious "danger" - I would turn left on the red signal if clear and if that was where I was going anyway. If I intended to go straight on and this inconsiderate fool was turning left - I would perhaps 'ave a word. But then I have a certain advantage - and he would perhaps be a little wiser for a blast of "acid" If in serious danger - I would perhaps "wimp out" and wheel the bike across.. making a note of all details to '"ave a word" later. I certainly would not consider placing myself in further danger by riding across the junction when lights against me. I do not do so in a car (unless on actual police business which is logged and recorded - as police - oddly enough - are not above the laws of the land despite what the tabloids say )

There are very few excuses for undertaking .. running a red light .. tailgating or speeding excessively and aggressively.

We do look at all offences and judge obejctively and professionally - and we often allow some measure of discretion according to the situation. But deliberate acts of stupidity - no. We prosecute - and if we think the driver should have seen this cyclist as GMP and CPS think a case to answer - then we file charges accordingly. But a court will be looking equally closely at the actions of all involved - including the injured or deceased. We simply "suspect" or have "grounds to suspect" when we decide on prosecutions and then rely on the courts to decide - and we have lost more than one case in very similar circumstances as the court held some contributory factor - given the need for common sense and some understanding of the Highway Code.

Now this is not what bereaved - or rather - vengeful keyboard warriors out there (who are not police nor lawyers anbd have no idea how courts make decision on the quality of evidence and counter argument) want to hear - but courts are very unemotional places and they look only at the evidence as presented. Any person's defence may well offer a fair mitigating argument on his behalf - and the court will take account of how the incident has affected him as well - and this means that CPS and police evidence are perhaps on trial and have to be watertight in each aspect if they wish to achieve a conviction for careless/undue care/inconsiderate driving in these instances.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

would the lorry driver be entitled to any victim support? It can't be very nice to kill someone and can't do much for your driving confidence.

Sadly Adam - folk do forget about the person who caused the accident - and may be have been criminally negligent - or - just plain careless with very tawful consequences for one split second - and wish with all their heart that they could turn the clock back for that one "blink of an eye". They do suffer and they also require counselling and otehr professional help. I fear they feel neglected by the police whose liaison officers perhaps spend all the time with the victims and the bereaved - and look for evidence against the hapless driver. I admit that this is perhaps wrong and will say that I have always tried to display calm objective professionalism and endeavoured to show that I was not the judge and jury - but used to explain simply that my investigations would perhaps help him or hr come to terms with what happened more easily. We train our team to behave in that fashion and I would say that all colleagues up and down the UK are similarly trained. There is a very big difference between getting behind a steering wheel of any motorised vehicle knowing that one is unfit .. unlicenced or plainly illegally there - and the ordinary person who happens to make a stupid mistake - thoughtless.. careless.. such as the momentary opening of a car door into the cyclist.. the forgotten double over the shoulder or nearside mirror glances (as in perhaps this case) - but a mistake which has the unthinkable outcome for these normally competent people.

This type - normally law abiding - perhaps never even been pinged by any speed cam or police officer either. (or if they have had a NIP - it would be aat the 10%+2 margin for prosecution and not a downright blat ) - but sadly this type are the ones who end up facing their worst nightmares because of some careless mistake which does not normally result in tragedy for all involved - but if unchecked can. It's why I keep hammering COAST and got the Swiss involved

Now this afternoon - I got a phone call. From the Mad Doc's sister Jazz. (she lurks ) She knows this road as she apparently has found a gem of a mechanic further up Folds Road.


She says that there is no right turn as this an exit road from St Peter's Way (A666). She reckons the lorry would have been making for the new slip road to the A666 which leads to the M61/M60 down at the Eccles/Worsley interchanges.


She says a car in the outer lane would have been heading up to the Market Place and central car carks/centre where the library is based - and inner lane vehicles would either be turning left or wishing to enter the left only turn ahead towards Bradshawgate.


She says there is a cycle lane and an ASL start and that the follow on cycle lane towards the Market Place and left only filter to Manor Road at the next lights is in the centre of the carriageway ahead. She says if she was riding it - she'd be in the centre of the ASL to head for the central cycle lane if heading for the Bolton Library and not at the kerb there. Now Jazz did Cycling Proficiency as a schoolgirl and did the Bikeabilty tests with the children she teaches to try to get across to them by example that we are always never too old to learn or develop. Off topic - but the Mad Doc's sister claimed that the Bikeability really gave her new skills as prior to that - she always viewed my advice as regards "primary" as just too "lycra-minded" , prior to this course..


I asked about the tightness of the corner. She replied that it would be tight if traffic was waiting to turn right into Folds Road.

I asked about the nearby shop. She says there are NO shops as such there. On Bury New Road itself - CCTV cams are outside a sign-making shop - but not trained onto Folds Road. There would be no view to suggest visibility from all three mirrors from this camera siting in her opinion.

On Folds Road itself - she says that some 100 yards are so - there is a Honda dealer.. on the opposite side.
She says if there are cams there - they are hidden from view as she cannot see them.


The only other shop is on the same side as the lights and "about 27 seconds distant" and it sells musical instruments.
She bought her saxophone from that shop.

It does have CCTV - but she says the shop is set well away from the road and at an angle from these lights - and thus doubts - in her opinion that the camera's angle or depth of field from its placing would prove the case per the journalist's reporting. She thinks, based on her own knowledge of the road as driver and cyclist along it, that outcome will hinge on the accident investigator's reports to the court and not the CCTV footage which perhaps is well open to question given its apparent location per the "local knowledge".



.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

read about this in one of the cycling mags... or maybe the CTC mag, i forget:

http://www.newlegislationtruckmirrors.com/

Hi Ed..

I think this mirror would be a good idea for those who drive these long vehicles - and I accept that to be able to handle a long vehicle still requires a much trained for skill. Truck and bus/coach driving licences are not "simple to pass" after all.



Now IG referred to a call he took from my sister who happened to know the deceased to talk to in the library. She says a nice . professional and helpful man who always had a cheery greeting to her. From Jazz - it would not be polite sentiment - but fact. .. .

Anyway - she knows the road. Has ridden it on the occasions she actually cycled to her school to teach.

She says Ian if he had survived the left turning lorry, would have ridden past Manor Road ( ultra steep hill and taking out of his way) and she thinks he should have OVERTAKEN the lorry to get to the ASL and in position for straight ahead to the Market Place and Knowsley Street with the "dodgy corner for pedestrians".

She says that she has not noticed a "rotational roving eye cam" and the only cam from any shop was from the musical instrument shop which she says is set back from the main road by a good couple of hundred yards because of its customer car park. She thus cannot see how the cam could show proof from that angle and thinks there must be a roving eye cam which she has never noted. She intends to have a good look next time she drives or rides out that way.

But she tells me that Folds Road has a cycle lane from Thicketford area (and a very decent bicycle shop) to central Bolton .. but that the lane is narrow and one would be scraping the pavement with the bike tyres in some parts.

But she says that this road would be mega busy in the morning with traffic heading to the St Peter's towards Manchester/motorways - and that she would be inclined to OVERTAKE the lot of them on the central crown of the road and if she intended to ride to Churchgate/Bradshawgate and use the other arterial road which runs parallel to the A666 - then she may consider ignoring a red signal at the left filter as to set off from red up that climb is just "exhausting" and she would have got up sufficient cadence to tackle the climb.

But she says this cyclist would have needed to continue straight ahead towards the Market Place on a gentler slope as this is the straightest route to where he worked.. and is upset to think a cyclist felt obliged to "keep to the left and close to kerb gutter and fell tragic victim to a nasty accident" when she learned from Bikeability that primary and merging and blending in with the traffic is a lot safer than it sounds in print

We feel very much for all involved .. for the cyclist and for the lorry driver. All were innocent people who perhaps each made an error and took each other for granted to varying degrees of self responsibiity .. and by this I mean the cyclist should not have ridden up the inside and the the lorry driver - as IG - pointed out - should have wondered where the cyclist he saw - went to.. and double checked the nearside wing or waited a second or so before moving off to double check everything.

I am trying to see things from the pointof view of the normally carefully competent who makes a stupid error .. and I do know that the court may not be able to punish the chap more than he perhaps punishes himself.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

I just 'speed read' these posts as quite a lot of content! You will see from my new topic this morning that I never go up the inside of vehicles, large or small. You will not be noticed. It doesn't make any difference if you are in a marked cycle lane, you are still at risk going up the inside of anything because it is not expected by the driver. I don't know how anyone can go up the inside of an artic, that would scare the hell out of me just to be on the inside of it at close quarters.

Having said that, I don't fully understand why there is this terrible blind spot problem on artics. Obviously the driver can't see right behind but why is it not possible to see all the way down each side? There may be a good reason but I'm just saying I don't understand what that is because surely it can be covered by additional mirrors? I would add that when I am out training, I find artic drivers to be the most courteous group of drivers. As a result, I always wave thanks for giving me plenty of room or pull over if it is a difficult section for them to pass. (this excludes the foreign artic driver that went all the way round a roundabout yesterday in the outside lane, lucky I realised what he was about to do and went round again myself)

On the subject of reversing cars, in my view the onus is fully on the driver to ensure it is safe to reverse. OK it's a bit daft to walk behind a car that is reversing, but don't forget those that don't have the sense for a good reason (e.g. children, the elderly). Here's a recent personal example. I had just parked and as I walked away from my car I heard a loud crash. The driver in front had reversed into the front of my car. He got out and was very angry - how was he expected to know my car was there because his rear screen was completely misted and he couldn't see anything out the back. It was therefore someone elses fault (he was unable to specify exactly whose fault it was!). If you can't see, you don't move until you can. It amazes me the number of drivers you see reversing whilst looking forwards, or pulling out of junctions between parked cars on the basis that 'I can't see whether anything is coming or not therefore I can't see anything coming, therefore it's safe to pull out'.

I'm in favour of it not being one party's complete responsibility to complete any action on the road safely. It should be everyone's responsibility to act in a safe manner towards each other, or else you effectively give the nominally less/not responsible party a carte blanche to act less responsibly.

I don't drive lorries but I do drive large vans up to 7.5T, and have to reverse in and out of our loading bay across a zebra crossing leading to the kiddie's animal area at our garden centre. Nice. Going backwards with limited visibility and excited kids running round. But still the parents seem to assume that I've seen them and walk out behind me when I'm reversing.

The trouble is you can only give one mirror you undivided attention, or else give both mirrors less than 50% attention each (allowing for a little eye-moving time!).

Johnny,. I know this. It part of why we all feel for that lorry driver in this case .. however it pan out for him in the court.


BUT we feel also for the cyclist who may have felt safe at the time too. At age 50 years.. he of the old school of keep to the kerb perhaps. Cycliing has changed so much since those old 3-5 gears of heavy steel.

The average bicycle ist a 21 geared Shimano - capable of working with a human being of any ability to achieve a fair commuting speed.

As such .. all can blend easily into traffic..

But many lack the confidence still.



I fear the late Ian perhaps did. I feel so sorry that this person whom my in-law states was "just a lovely man to be acquainted with " died like that.

But.. we have to accept that the other party also suffers very badly in all this too.

NO.. I do not drive up the inside of a truck in a car. I most certainly do not do so on a bicycle. I cannot be sure if they see me. I prefer to stay out of danger here.

I may have filtered on his off-side. I may have been safer . but still would have to watch for the swing to the right to corner safely all the same.

Maybe it my training from Germany. We spent time in formal classroom discussing all potential hazards . even when I was just aged 17 going on 18 years

They taught me well .. but I am the type to accept such teachings perhaps

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Maybe lorry drivers who squash people like this should fu*****ng check their mirrors before they turn left then?!

Come on, Weepej, be fair. I you you were cycling and killed a pedestrian they would be a queue of people offering you "victim support".

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

But then a cyclist should be aware of Highway Codes 72 -73 which tells the cyclist not to riide up the inside of a vehicle signalling left., Rule 73 re-iterates John Franklin's advice.

If all took a little more care in general out there - plenty of accidents would be avoided. I tend to take the option of caution when deciding what to do based on everything I note of any traffic situation. One thing you do not ever do is take the other road user for granted or assume anything We've already said that if - in the 27 seconds he was ahead of the cyclist and stopping/stopped at those lights - he should have wondered where the cyclist now was and made some final checks or delayed setting off till sure. Cyclist, though, should have overtaken the stopped vehicles to get to the ASL which I understand exists and sat very prominently in primary poll position. Safe riding is about making yourself very visible when blending normally in with the traffic when all is said and done. That means using PRIMARY in many a commuting situation.


Safe driving/riding = using COAST values .. all the time. Observation means OBSERVATION OBSERVING everything .. gathering intelligent information about the traffic conditions .. .. anticipating and deciding very quickly what to do on that basis.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

There but for the grace of god go I

Yeees.

And lorry drivers should be checking their sides before they move off in case some f****g idiot on a cycle is sitting there. If they don't, they're f*****g idiots too.

It's not hard!




What like "assume" there's nobody up the side of your lorry?