Safe Speed Forums

Why is it that many bus drivers are too impatient to wait a few seconds? I've lost count of the times I've approached a bus stop with a bus a short distance behind and, rather than following me into the bus stop, the bus has overtaken me, pulled in, and stopped just a few feet in front of me. Surely, this is careless (or even dangerous) driving on the part of the bus driver.

Normally, this just means some hard braking on my part, followed by a swift manoeuvre around the offside of the bus (after checking that nobody else is heading for the same space). However, a few days ago I didn't even have time for a look around, so had to stop, and I couldn't get going again because the queue of cars behind the bus were heading for the same bit of road I'd have to use to get by and they were going too fast for my safety

So, I have to figure out a way of defending against numpty bus drivers, and the only way that I can think of doing this is to prevent the bus overtaking by adopting the primary riding position as I approach any bus stop where a following bus is within "striking distance". Understandably, this is going to upset a few motorists caught at significantly less than their free-travelling speed between me and the bus. It might also upset a few bus drivers who had no intention of stopping at that particular stop but I can't think of another way of guarding against this hazard.

Any other ideas?

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Will

I've got a few points...

- I believe that the rise of bad driving by bus drivers is in significant part due to planning and road regulations that favour buses. The drivers start to think they are more important than other road users and this imbalances the priority question in marginal cases.

- The primary riding position is a good response in cases where it is needed, but a bad response in cases where it isn't. That's going to be a difficult judgement call. Before you start with that, perhaps try and determine the percentage of occasions where this really happens. If it's less than -say- one in ten then I'd suggest that the primary riding position isn't justified. It's easy to think that something 'always happens' when the outcome is memorable.

- Looking systematically, it's just possible that there's a lacuna in the training being given to local bus drivers. I would think it's worth writing to the local bus company(s) pointing out the problem. Or even send a letter each time it happens with specific details. Perhaps it's just a couple of drivers who share your regular routes?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Thanks, Paul.


TBH, my experience is that buses are in general more courteous than they were ten or twenty years ago and seem to give me more space than they did back then - but perhaps that's got more to do with my no longer riding in the gutter.


The number of times I approach a bus stop and have a bus in the danger zone are comparatively few, yet this issue has happened twice in as many weeks. I don't think it is a difficult judgement call - if you've been "squeezed" by a stopping bus you don't want to repeat the experience. Just as you don't drive around blind bends on the wrong side of the road even if you know the chance of someone actually coming the other is way is less than 1 in 10, I don't think that 1 in 10 is an acceptable risk with this hazard. After all, any in-service bus could be stopping at any bus stop, it only takes one, and I'm not prepared to gamble with my life (particularly with those sort of odds).

I have to ensure that the hazardous formation of a bus overtaking me just before a bus stop doesn't happen. Rethinking, I can see two ways of handling this: either prevent the bus from overtaking until after the stop, or ensure it has overtaken well before the stop. However, the latter introduces its own dangers because I've then got to negotiate my way past a bus that might pull out with little or no warning while I'm alongside and there is the inevitable queue of cars behind the bus to deal with. The latter is also much more difficult to judge because you have to spot the bus stop far enough ahead and the bus far enough behind to be able to identify a safe passing place and adjust your speed so that the bus and you arrive at your chosen passing place together.

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Will

I also think it also has to do with whether this is urban or more rural. I visit my student kids in Oxford. Cars are not allowed in the centre between certain times and there are big signs warning that there are bus lane cameras as well. Have no problem with that.. the Park &Ride system let me park up for just 60p for 24 hours. I even double checked as I just coul not believe it

The bus drivers down there are very obliging as well. I noted that they allowed a very elderly lady who was clearly having difficulty walking board the bus on Magdalen Street before doing the turn around to the opposite side to return to the Park and Rides. The driver in question was just aged 19 years and I was a passenger on that bus and observed this. I will have to say that this young man was a credit to his generation when we read so much about and deal with so much tragedy with others of his age group. It is really heartening and encouraging to know that perhaps we are only dealing with a small fraction of the really silly kids who get themselves into tragic bother. I honestly have no answers as to how to address this - we just keep on with our Liaison Teams and our "Fun Days" aimed at teaching these youngster how to have some fun, keep it safe and try to get across the message that its cooler to COAST the drive and this is the REAL skill of the art of driving .. but young drivers like that Oxford bus driver, - and I have to praise my own children, the young Swiss drivers and a good number of their "clique or circle of friends" in that COAST seems to be taken sersiously by them I think they would not actually [i] dare as we put the fear of me as IG with the acid line in lecturing into them


So Will my old mate.. there is some hope if the calibre of that young man is Oxford is recruited and trained to that level of skill and passenger courtesy which does extend to the other road users by a sort of default "lizard brain" if you like.

So .... despite the lack of speed lollies on those 50 mph roads ... plethora of speed cams and other cams - I have to say Well DONE! Oxford on the bus and Park/Ride provision

Perhaps other bus companies could learn from them



I do adopt a primary when cycling down a bis lane with a bus breathing down my backside.

If too close for my comfort .. I give the slow down arm signal - similar to that described for all drivers in the Highway Code. It usually works as they see this and back off.


I do not know if this would work in a place like London or Newcastle or Manchester even I can only suggest to try it and see.

But in fairness to the bus drivers.. they have to be able to stop at the required stops .. without unduly disturbing passengers. I find our local bus drivers fairly OK ... but was not impressed with those in London or Manchester or Preston as I thought the ride was "jerky" and a bit "slip shod"

But Will .. stiick to your primary in the bus lane you sahre with the buses. If you ride the bike on a known bus route which does not have a bus lane and a bus is behind you.. again keep with primary. Dan Cadden;s case has set a precedent (:bow: and to the brave Eddy Brain - who may be a normal road bicycle fanatic .. may dislike those of us who love our cars.. but no matter.. we car lovers respect his love of the bicycle and a true petrolhead would recognise the sheer love another would have for a bicycle

And .. some of us car lovers do enjoy riding our own bicycles and enjoy walking and rambling in the countryside too.. Cycling is then not the domain of the lycra militia - but enjoyed by a good many who also enjoy driving their cars and can understand teh frustrations of both sides.

In short .. car lovers like the Swiss, myself, Richard Hammond and James May - also ride bicycles very enthusiastically, speedily, prgressively and safely and are fervently on the side of decent facilities and the need to call for the numpty brigade to understand and address the needs of those cyclists with whom they share a road and each party should negotiate their course with courtesy

Let's be directly blunt to the lurks

[i] people who drive cars also ride bicycles. All car drivers like to keep their "No Claims Bonus" and they like to keep their cars for which they paid hard cash in good working order and wish to get a decent price on trade-in.

This ensures elements of caution to some extent

These conscientious drivers who make up the greater number of the MoP out here will pay up.. accept their mistakes and try to avoid in the future



Just because I had the benefit of trainign to a high standard courtesy of the tax payer does not and never would mean I am better than a good pass IAM etc It does mean though that I am obliged to drive in accordance with that training and ensure my own standards are as safety led as possible



So Will .. keep to a primary at those danger points. If the driver behaves irrepsonsibly .. make a note of the time.. bus service number and report yto that bus company and hint that shoud it continue .. you might go to the press about it

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Thanks IG, all noted.

I've just got to get a little thicker skinned, I guess. I don't feel guilty taking the primary at pinch points, so I shouldn't in this (just as dangerous) situation - but somehow I do

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Will

I think the reason you feel guilty - and the reason that you should choose with care and caution - is that you know that the problem isn't always present.

To deliberately obstruct a bus that ISN'T stopping and ISN'T going to cause the problem is wrong in my estimation. (But if you do it, try to enjoy it - I've been obstructed by enough buses in my time for both of us... )

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The issue here is that you can't tell in advance which buses won't stop, and thus aren't likely to cause a problem. You can sometimes tell that a bus will stop (e.g. waiting passengers sticks out their hands), but a lack of such clues doesn't mean the bus won't stop. That said if you approach a bus stop with a bus close behind, people at that stop is a definite cue to adopt the primary.

Because it is never safe for a car or larger to pass at a pinch point, all you're doing by taking the primary at a pinch point is removing the temptation for other road users to drive without due care. It's a little different at bus stops because you can't tell whether it's dangerous for the bus to pass you until it either continues without incident or cuts you up - i.e. until it's too late. So unless someone comes up with a foolproof way of differentiating between those that are and aren't stopping a cyclist has little option but assume the bus is a threat and ride accordingly.

So, if you have a foolproof way of identifying in good time buses that won't stop, I'm listening.

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Will

I don't, of course. But that's where 'care and caution' comes in and you'll need your best judgement.

I'd hazard a guess that the number of times you can't make a good judgement will be small and decreasing.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety