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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 19:05 
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This might provoke some dicussion... Maybe not...

Was talking to a mate a few weeks ago about how his driving/learning was coming on and he said he had practised an emergency stop and then about 5 minutes later he actually had to put what he learned into practise... Some woman ran out into the road at a pedestrian crossing... Mate slams the brakes and comes to a stop (car has ABS). Driving instructor afterwards says to him, "lucky you were concentrating there, I wouldn't have been able to stop in time." This made me think... What if a learner assumes that the instructor will intervene if anything serious happens, for example, a child running out in front of the car to get a ball...

I never had dual control, I learnt in my own car, so I don't know what it's like to have it, but I can see the usefulness of it, especially at the very beginning, to give you a bit more confidence, because I know that something I worried about when I started was stalling on a start, and it was something I did quite often, just for a few days, and then it stopped... I think it would have been nice to have dual control for that because I think it could have instilled a bit of confidence in myself, making me think I can do this...

My instructor doesn't believe in dual control, and his car has none yet...

Something else that bothered me was the fact that my mates driving instructor sits on the brakes at junctions... Now, for a new driver, yes I see the point, but you're still going to dazzle the person behind, and it's bad driving in my opinion, and it would be one of my hates, especially in a queue, when you're not at the end... Surely if the instructor feels he needs to stop the car moving, it would be more appropriate to hold the hand brake, because the car isn't going to go far if the handbrake is on. I had an incident whilst learning where I thought I had disengaged the handbrake, moved off and couldn't work out why the car was pulling so badly... Next junction I came to, whoops, that was on...

So the points I'd like to make are... If the car has dual control, the instructor should really be actively watching the road, not just passively. If the dual control is there he/she should be paying as much attention to the road as he would be driving the car himself... And perhaps a button on dual control cars to hold the handbrake? Something that disables the car from moving without having 75 watts of brake lights getting shined into the eyes of the driver in the vehicle behind... The only time I would see sitting on the foot brake being appropriate would be at the back of a queue, and as soon as someone comes behind me I tend to take the foot off...

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 20:36 
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mikes1988 wrote:
Something else that bothered me was the fact that my mates driving instructor sits on the brakes at junctions...

why does this trouble the British so? It's standard practice everywhere else I've driven and I've never heard anybody complain about being dazzled by it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 20:47 
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johnsher wrote:
mikes1988 wrote:
Something else that bothered me was the fact that my mates driving instructor sits on the brakes at junctions...

why does this trouble the British so? It's standard practice everywhere else I've driven and I've never heard anybody complain about being dazzled by it.


Honestly, I think we have higher standards.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 20:56 
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I wear glasses... Maybe you do too, but I find it hard to see properly if there's a bright light in front of me, especially if its wet... It does dazzle me... Not during the day though, just at night...

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 21:08 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Honestly, I think we have higher standards.

well yes, rah rah old chap. Now isn't there a theory that autos get rear-ended less in this country because they have their brake lights on when stopped?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 21:13 
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Yes, I am pretty sure that almost no-one who drives an automatic puts on the handbrake and takes the car out of gear at junctions. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 21:17 
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Blimey - this is almost off topic before itys started I think!

I drive an auto - and yes I hold my footy on the brake to stop it creeping. However, once something has caught me up, if it is dark, wet or both, on goes the handbrake and off comes the foot.

Dual controls. My instructor had them (clutch and brake, not throttle) but used them hardly ever - in facvt probably never while I was at the wheel. Not sure about others, but I really think they were there as a reassurance factor.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 21:21 
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Roger wrote:
Blimey - this is almost off topic before itys started I think!

well just to drag it back on, I had one lesson in a dual control car and that was enough. The guy kept needless braking for me and it was just far too frustrating an experience.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 21:35 
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johnsher wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
Honestly, I think we have higher standards.

well yes, rah rah old chap.


:D I think the higher standards are expressed in terms of worrying about subtler things.

johnsher wrote:
Now isn't there a theory that autos get rear-ended less in this country because they have their brake lights on when stopped?


Yes - I've heard that. Never seen any actual evidence or figures.

I do keep brake lights on deliberately until there's someone behind and I'm confident that they are stopping.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 21:39 
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I agree with Roger on both counts.
Lights on until somebody has stopped behind, then handbrake.

On dual controls, my instructor never used them. I am sure that with some drivers it might be necessary.
When I have accompanied learner drivers, it has been nerve wracking having to rely on only the handbrake should something go awry. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 22:31 
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Yea, I think I said in my post... But at the back of a queue of traffic, or if I'm in the middle of a road with noone behind me I'll tend to keep on the footbrake, but once someone is behind me and they've stopped I'll usually put the handbrake on...

And yea, probably contradicting myself a bit here, but I'd agree some people would need dual controls... I think it really depends on the 'relationship' between the instructor and the learner... I know that when I was with dad or steven (my instructor) I was always happy enough that they would tell me if I needed to brake early, and I think they knew I could stop the car if I had to, the emergency stop was probably one of the first things I did... But I noticed that mum, who only sat with me a handful of times, was much more nervous than the other two, and she would hit the imaginary brake on the floor a lot more often, and she still does... I don't really know what dad would do now, I've hardly driven anywhere with him, but before my test it was really just me driving, and him giving me the odd pointer... My lessons were always really intense... I think it was just my guy though... He was a retired/retiring police driver and instructor, so he knew his stuff, and he always emphasised the importance of observation over everything else... Going into the test he had always drilled into my head that driving was 90% or so observation, the rest was being able to do the stuff... I didn't really notice that at the time, but now after being on here for a while, I've started to realise what sound advice that was, once you've got the basics behind you, observation becomes vital... I'm also happy of the way he taught me to take lane movements and such, and roundabouts... The 'lifesaver' glance is still something I always do, and something none of my mates do... I think nearly getting sideswiped by a van about a week after my test reminded me to do this... Some people do go round the roundabout in lane 1... Just nice to have that quick glance to ensure you're not going to share someone elses tarmac...

I think something good in your driving test is to have a bad bit at the start, where you assume you've failed... It takes so much pressure off you... At the start of my test I stalled going out of the test centre, and then hesitated at the junction because there was a lorry parked and I couldn't see properly around it, which put me off... I then thought 'Oh, I've failed, not to worry, just keep going, it'll be a learning experience for the next time.' Stalled once more, he gave me a minor for that, I must have paniced a bit or something when recovering... I stopped a bit short of a red light (half a car length or something before it), stopped in front of someones driveway, or nearly in front of it, and I failed to check the offside blindspot after carrying out my emergency stop... I also thought I'd messed up when I was doing my turn in road, as a few cars started waiting, and I couldn't remember what I should do... But I just kept turning, and got that sorted...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 08:11 
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My instructor had dual controls, bloody annoying they were as well.

I wish I'd had the confidence at the time to sack him. I drove much better on my actual test when my driving wasn't being intefered with all the time, with the result that I passed first time despite my instructor saying he would get another job if I passed. He didn't even keep that promise. :x

I'm sure to some people (both instructors and learners) having the dual controls is a comfort but they can be overused.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 09:28 
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mikes1988 wrote:
This might provoke some dicussion... Maybe not...

Was talking to a mate a few weeks ago about how his driving/learning was coming on and he said he had practised an emergency stop and then about 5 minutes later he actually had to put what he learned into practise... Some woman ran out into the road at a pedestrian crossing... Mate slams the brakes and comes to a stop (car has ABS). Driving instructor afterwards says to him, "lucky you were concentrating there, I wouldn't have been able to stop in time." This made me think... What if a learner assumes that the instructor will intervene if anything serious happens, for example, a child running out in front of the car to get a ball...


Well I certainly keep on my toes when my students are driving. I'm sure the instructor would have intervened...we do develop exceptionally quick reactions :lol: Perhaps it was his way of praising your friend for taking the initiative. Although I understand you said woman was 'running' towards the crossing I wonder what speed your friend was approaching crossing at, and where he was looking.


mikes1988 wrote:
I never had dual control, I learnt in my own car, so I don't know what it's like to have it, but I can see the usefulness of it, especially at the very beginning, to give you a bit more confidence, because I know that something I worried about when I started was stalling on a start, and it was something I did quite often, just for a few days, and then it stopped... I think it would have been nice to have dual control for that because I think it could have instilled a bit of confidence in myself, making me think I can do this...


I use the dual controls only when I have to. This is usually at novice stage as you say Mike, stalling. You take them off the 'nursery patch' with reasonably good clutch control but they panic in slightly busier roads, say moving off at lights or a slightly busy junction (maybe a bit hilly too). I'll give them one go..because obviously we don't want to annoy motorists behind us (but if no one is around we'll take time and do with a talk through) I will then hold my foot just above the clutch so if they bring it up too quick I will save it. Invariably because they know I'm there to rescue them they relax and do ok. I rarely need to brake; if I do and they're well into and (past) the stage where I'd expect to have to do it for them they'll invariably get a rocket (in a nice way) and it gives them a wake up call about the consequences of not paying full attention.



mikes1988 wrote:
Something else that bothered me was the fact that my mates driving instructor sits on the brakes at junctions... Now, for a new driver, yes I see the point, but you're still going to dazzle the person behind, and it's bad driving in my opinion, and it would be one of my hates, especially in a queue, when you're not at the end... Surely if the instructor feels he needs to stop the car moving, it would be more appropriate to hold the hand brake, because the car isn't going to go far if the handbrake is on. I had an incident whilst learning where I thought I had disengaged the handbrake, moved off and couldn't work out why the car was pulling so badly... Next junction I came to, whoops, that was on...


"If a wait becomes a pause use the handbrake", "use it if you need to or have time to".

mikes1988 wrote:
So the points I'd like to make are... If the car has dual control, the instructor should really be actively watching the road, not just passively. If the dual control is there he/she should be paying as much attention to the road as he would be driving the car himself... And perhaps a button on dual control cars to hold the handbrake?


If I use duals I always tell student I've used them and why. Handbrake is accessible to instructor though Mike. :D


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 09:33 
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malcolmw wrote:
Yes, I am pretty sure that almost no-one who drives an automatic puts on the handbrake and takes the car out of gear at junctions. :)


I have an auto as well as a manual. With the auto I don't take out of gear but put handbrake on if where necessary :D


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 00:20 
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Strange - going back 40 years - both cars i learned in had duals - and instructor was strict - no jumping yelows - he hit brakes - and then an acid lecture ( IG - yours would be mild by comparison) - go too fast - 32 mh in 30 - acid again - but then - hit lights on change - drop a gear - flor it and you come on other side before red. Mine was full of good advice " to be used after passing test", Mine tought theory , "how you should do it, and after test - how you do it" ----and after 40 years - i still hear his words - and after 40 years my NCB based on his advice is going upwards , BUT - if some one here makes a statement - i'll consider it , debate it , evalulate it and then pass judgement as to whether it is usefull --remember all ideas save lives.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 04:16 
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johnsher wrote:
well yes, rah rah old chap. Now isn't there a theory that autos get rear-ended less in this country because they have their brake lights on when stopped?


I've owned an auto for 21 months, for the previous 4 years I've driven manuals.

I've been rear ended twice, and both times it was in the auto, whilst stationary, with the brake lights illuminated.

From this I just conclude that the people who hit me were just dozy bastards not paying attention.

I would suggest autos in this country get rear ended less because they tend to be long distance executive motorway cruisers wheras in other countries everyone drive autos.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 09:00 
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This is interesting as I'd assumed all school cars had dual controls. Thinking back to my first driving test in 1987, I had stopped at a zebra crossing and was just beginning to pull away when a teenager on a pushbike flew off the pavement and over the crossing, across my path. As I was only doing about 5mph, I touched the brake gently as I knew that would stop me in time. The examiner obviously didn't see this and hit the brake on his side. Result: failed test. In hindsight, though, if the car had not been fitted with dual controls, the cances are I would have passed as I know I would definitely have stopped in time.
BTW you'll be pleased to know I passed second time :)


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