Safe Speed Forums

My previous car was a 2001 Golf V6. It was a cracking car with a beautiful engine, but in town driving it was a gas guzzler. The day came when I was no longer making daily motorway trips, but more local journeys, and I could see that a diesel car would be more suitable for my needs. I replaced the V6 Golf with another Golf – GTi with the 1.9 TDi 150 engine. Much better for local journeys, taller gears for less gear changing, but great on long journeys too! Now that VW produces a 4WD “4-Motion” version Golf GT/TDi, that will be my next car. But there is a problem…

When I bought my current car, the price of diesel fuel was actually about 1p/ltr more than UL95, despite the fact that diesel is cheaper to produce, and can be made from a smaller volume of crude oil than the same volume of petrol. Some weeks ago, I saw a TV programme in the “Gigantic Machines” series, or something similar. It was all about different types of engines and fuels – methanol, petrol – and diesel. About 90 years ago, before the motorist became the government’s milch cow, diesel cost only one fifth as much as petrol!! That would seem to provide an insight into the level of taxation on diesel fuel in 2005. In the 1½ years that I’ve had my TDi, the cost of a litre has gone from 75p-80p a litre to 87p-92p a litre, and instead of being 1p-2p more than petrol is now sometimes 6p-7p more. I am a little bit aggrieved by this, especially as other European countries with which I am familiar (France, Holland, Spain, Portugal, Austria) seem to price diesel fuel at 70% of the price of petrol in deference to its lower production costs. For example, in Austria last month, I bought diesel at 96 eurocents/ltr – about 65p.

So some time ago, I wrote to Alistair Darling, Transport secretary, with a view to getting an explanation. My point was that the government’s pricing policy had the effect of deterring some motorists from switching to diesel, and therefore our nation's road fuel requirements have to be met using a much larger volume of crude oil than would otherwise be the case. The letter was handed over to a M Lyttle at HM Customs and Excise. The reason for diesel being more expensive than petrol, it turns out, is because our government “sees no reason for price harmonisation” with the rest of Europe. OK, but why not? I never did get a satisfactory answer. So there it is. We’ve had the 2000 fuel tax revolt, and our road haulage industry is on its knees in the face of foreign competitors who refuel their vehicles on the continent before their trips around Britain – but despite this, and despite the somewhat forceful nature of the message delivered in 2000, the government “sees no reason” for price harmonisation.

Sure, even though consumption by diesel cars is less than their petrol equivalents, they emit more particulates. So when measured at the exhaust pipe, diesel emissions score a black mark – excuse the pun. But what about pollution at the refinery? To produce enough fuel for a petrol car to travel 100 miles might need 2-3 times as much crude oil than would be needed to supply the equivalent diesel car. Does it not follow that the balance between refinery and exhaust pipe emissions might still favour diesel?

Now I hear there’s more bad news. The Government plans further increases in the tax on diesel fuel in the battle against particulates. This, despite what I’ve just read on the ABD website which says that elderly, heavy polluting diesel buses are not subject to any emissions testing!

The cynic inside me thinks that the real reason the government taxes diesel so heavily is because it’s not really a tax on fuel at all; it’s a tax on driving. They just can’t stand the fact that someone like me can get 50mpg instead of 27mpg if only because it means I’d be paying less tax, or that because my fuel bills are still much lower than before, I can afford to pay more tax and therefore I should be made to pay more tax. And that, in my humble opinion, is the real reason why diesel fuel will continue to be priced much higher than petrol, in Britain.

Er, the fuel duty on diesel is exactly the same as the tax on petrol, 47.1p per litre. The price differential is down to the oil companies, not the government. Possibly the reason for it becoming more expensive than petrol is that more people are using it, so the balance of demand has changed.

Also bear in mind that when refining oil you produce a variety of products - kerosene, petrol, diesel, heavy fuel oil etc. You can tweak the proportions, but you can't say "oh, we'll turn all this barrel of crude into diesel".

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

But the production of refined fuel from crude oil is a fractional distillation process is it not? When a volume of crude is processed you get proportions of heavy fuels (tars, bitchumen) medium fuels (gasoline and kerosene) and light gasses for making plastics and using in heaters.
And whilst the fuels can be 'cross-cut', you still get approxiamtely the same amount of each product from one unit.

[Edit - Aw nuts, sorry Peter you said pretty much the same thing. That'll teach me to start a reply then wander off half-way through ]

I would have thought that if more people were using diesel, it would become less, not more, expensive owing to economies of scale.

We have the most expensive road diesel in the world. If you're saying that the price differential is down to the oil companies, then why is diesel MUCH cheaper than petrol in all the countries I listed above, and others?

I accept that the by products released by the processing of crude oil into petrol are not simply wasted, but the fact remains that to produce petrol is a lengthier (and more expensive) process than to produce diesel.

But, as I and Rigpig have pointed out, you produce petrol and diesel from crude oil in fairly fixed quantities. Therefore, if diesel becomes more popular, and petrol less popular, the relative price of diesel is likely to increase - it's a simple case of supply and demand.


Because the other countries choose to tax it less than petrol which - given that in many ways diesel is more polluting - is not to my mind a good idea. Whether the actual level of tax is reasonable is another issue, obviously.


But you put it rather more technically than me. I knew that fractional distillation came into it somehow.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Well of course - that was sort of my whole point all along. The question is - WHY? (Why does Britain tax diesel so much - as if we didn't already know the answer)

Before we go down the route of "diesel is better because" remember diesel smoke is one of the worst polutants produced by internal combustion engines.

Personaly I hate the stuff and I would NEVER EVER own a car that uses diesel, no matter how much performance they get out of it.

I am pig sick if standing in a pool of spilt diesel when I am filling my car or even worse, the bike and even get the crap on my hands where some prat managed to spalsh the whole pump with diesel somehow. I see the business men numpties putting on little plastic gloves on so they don't get the smelly sh*t on their hands...

I would be glad to see the day when the diesel pumps are on the other side of the forecourt where they belong.

Any way rant over, petrol and diesel are fuels of the past, biodiesel, ethenol, hydrogen are the fuels of the future...Biodiesel is already being rolled out in the US and is comming to europe, ethenol is also used in the US as a 10% additive to petrol inand is going to get approved here soon as well.

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Speed camera policy Kills

Yep pretty much, but whats the alternative? Road pricing? Well possibly but it has a lot of problems assosiated with it's implementation. Inflation adjusted petrol is no more expensive then it was 20 years ago, but of course with diesel you can get upto double the amount of mpg - or if your comparing apples with apples for a similar spec car you can realistically expect a 50% improvement. Diesel is not 50% more expensive so your still better off then you were 20 years ago. A Kangoo van(80BHP) I use at work works out at something in the region of 7p per mile and a LWB Hi-Roof Traffic(140 BHP) runs at about 10p per mile. Thats including VAT as well. Pretty cheap I think and the reason I think that diesel is priced about right at the moment.

If fuel was taxed by calorific content, diesel would be taxed at a considerably higher rate per litre than petrol. The reason diesel vehicles are more economical is that diesel is a denser fuel (a lower fraction of the distillate) with more energy per litre. It's nothing to do with any inherent superiority of the compression-ignition process.

Historically diesel fuel was taxed less than petrol in this and most other countries because it was mainly used by commercial vehicles which were felt to be more "deserving" than private cars. Other countries still maintain this policy, with the result that two-thirds or more of car sales are diesels.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Which means that it's heavier than petrol. Pound for pound (weight) there's little difference in consumption between a petrol and diesel engine for the same power output. The main advantage of diesel (besides tax) is that you can get away with a smaller fuel tank for the same range.
Diesel engines are also longer lasting, but that's mainly because they have a heavier construction for the same power output. This, however, is rapidly changing with new technology.

Cheers
Peter

Pretty cheap?? Diesel in Britain is the most expensive in the world!!

So is the petrol....well almost!


Its cheap by comparison. If you pay the same duty per litre and yet get double the miles per gallon...........well that sounds cheap to me.

In the unlikely event road tolls come in fuel consumption will be almost irrelevant. Motoring will cost everyone the same.

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Speed camera policy Kills

Only if your comparison is limited to the price of petrol in the UK.

I thought that is what we were doing....

The REAL reaso the government want to get away from fuel duty is because of the iminent introduction of alternative fuels. if they keep it tax neutral at todays prices they are goin to be quids in in 10 years.

Just think of the effect in tax if cars switched to hydrogen or compressed natural gas, both of which are on the cards. How are going to tax fuel that you can actualy make your self with the right equipment.

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Speed camera policy Kills

No. Read my original post again. Its whole thrust was "why is diesel so heavily taxed in the UK compared with other countries?" I mentioned Austria, Spain, France etc. Take another look!

No, your original thrust was why is diesel so heavily taxed in comparison to petrol in the UK. After we had shown that this is not the case, you have changed your argument.

The general level of fuel taxation is another issue, but I don't see any reason why diesel should be taxed less than petrol per unit of volume, given that it is a denser, heavier fuel with a higher energy content per litre.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

No, I didn't change my argument - I clarified my original argument. You didn't read my post properly. I will self quote, highlighting the salient passage.

There. Does that make it any clearer? Other countries price diesel more in line with its production cost.

There seems to be some confusion between tax and price. Tax is a government issue, price is vender issue.

Are you saying the TAX is too much or the PRICE is too much.

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Speed camera policy Kills

Forgot to say - that passage (ie. the comparison between Britain's petrol v. diesel price and the same comparison in other countries) was from my original post.

Gizmo. I am saying the tax is too much. Diesel should be cheaper than petrol, as it is in other countries - see the ones listed in my original post. And there are others, I am sure.

Petrol in those countries I listed costs about the same as here - 1.22 euros is a typical price for a litre - about 81p at today's rate.

Why, given that it is a more polluting fuel with a higher calorific density? If anything, diesel should be taxed more per litre than petrol, or both should be taxed by weight.

The cost of production argument doesn't wash, either. The pre-tax price of diesel in the UK is higher than that of petrol, suggesting its production costs are, if anything, more. As we have said before, both petrol and diesel are co-products of a fractional distillation process, so their cost of production is unlikely to vary significantly, and distribution costs will be pretty much identical.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed