Safe Speed Forums

This is partly a request for help or info from any serving Traffic Officers, but first a quick explanation...

I am now working for a national construction company who have just bought new vehicles, many of these are family estates as the surveyors are carrying large (and heavy) kit. I was asked my advice on safety features, driver training and space saver spare wheels, which I am very anti for the following reasons:

The vehicle cannot be driven above 45mph according to handbook, and it is likely that the drivers will be using the motorway - not a good mix in my opinion.

The vehicle cannot carry a full load with sspw, what are our surveyors to do? Leave kit on the roadside?

The manufacturers handbook states that sspw affects the ABS, traction control (where fitted) and the steering.

In my opinion sspw are fundamentaly flawed and a 'gimmick' to flog a proper spare wheel as an optional extra.

Anyone any thoughts, or encountered accidents involving the use of sspw, I would be especially interested in hearing from serving Traffic officers.

Many Thanks

_________________
Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

I'm very unhappy about space saver spare wheels. I've never had a car so equipped.

Sometimes it'd be nice to get back the space occupied by a standard spare wheel, but I don't like the space saver solution.

There are sealing / inflating foams that I would have though were a better low bulk solution. Of course they don't work in the case of bad tyre damage. I think several new cars come with such foam...

But I'd still rather carry a full size, full spec, correctly inflated spare.

I also carry an electric inflator these days, and with many slower punctures it's quicker and safer to pump in some air and drive to a garage forecourt (or similar) before you actually change the wheel.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I've never had a car with a ss spare wheel, but I'm not a fan of them, for the reasons stated by Paul.
I bought a brand new Honda Accord saloon in 1990 while serving in Germany, it was UK spec, but with RH dip H/Lights.
The flooring in the boot had 3inch thick HD foam block padding under the carpet and a standard spare wheel.
I asked about the padding, apparently the car was designed for a space saver, but a standard had been put in instead.
As for Why?, I don't know, other than space savers might well have been, at least, frowned upon in Germany at the time.

_________________
Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.

My present car has a space saver, and much as I hate the idea in all honesty it would be impractical to carry a full size one. This is partly because of the width of the tyres and partly because the rear wheels are wider than the fronts.

Meanwhile my wife's car goes the opposite route, and is fitted with a tin of mousse and an air compressor. This seems a bit more like cynical cost saving however, as a full size one would fit under the boot floor and can be obtained as an optional extra if so desired. I've never actually found out whether a tyre can still be repaired once it has been filled with mousse - does anyone know?

I believe some manufacturers aren't even offering a spare at all nowadays, others have no way of carrying the removed wheel once you've fitted the space saver spare! What is the world coming to?

I suppose it is all the inevitable result of the ultra competitive modern car market pushing requirements in conflicting directions: performance dictates wide tyres and large diameter wheels, but storage space is at more of a premium than ever before.

_________________
CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

I'm not certain, but I think a tyre full of repair mousse is a dead tyre. I have used the stuff before and have a can rattling round the boot, but like space savers its not a proper solution. Only good for short distances and moderate speeds IIRC. Worth having as long as you remember it's only a get-you-home job.

Having a proper spare is best, but we bought little compressors when it crossed our minds that fiddle arsing around with the locking wheelnut keys in the dark might actually be more effort than re-inflating the tyre a couple of times to get home.

Not keen on space savers though. Bit of an oxymoron. Strangely my Honda has a full size spare but I'm told it's designed to have a space saver, and that's what models imported from Japan have. Seems odd. The well the spare lives in fits a 255 okay, so why bother with a space saver which doesn't actually save any useable boot space?

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

I've got a space saver with my car because a full size would take up far too much of the already small boot. I looked into mousse as I have v rated tyres so repairing isn't sensible anyway. Mousse filled tyres are good for max 30 mph it says on the cans so it is even more useless than the space saver.

I detest space savers and I would change the regs so that all new cars sold must carry a full sized spare/have run flats as it is sod's law you meet an emergency situation when you have one of them fitted and you can't maximise your escape strategy. I don't think anyone has done much research on what space savers do. The BMW idea of run flat tyres is reasonable. Once they get the ride quality sorted out then run flats should be the future. Probably best to fit something to alert the driver they have a flat as the numpties would drive around with flat tyres for weeks

I have a standard space saver in my car as the front and rear wheels are both different widths and different diameters. it stays in the garage and 2 cans of foam travel with me.

Space saver wheels are not a problem, if they are used correctly.

They are designed to get you to the nearest garage, for repairs.

They also have an element of controlled maintenance, i am willing to put some money down that at least 10 % of drivers use their spare as a replacement for worn tyres, and do not get the repair done when they have to.

Space savers make drivers get the tyre repaired straight away

_________________
Steve

I've not been to this forum before, but noticed this topic which looks interesting.

One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned with regard to SS tyres is this: If you have a puncture and you need to change the wheel, what do you do with the wheel you just removed? The whole idea of the SS compartment is to save space, therefore the wheel you just removed isn't going to fit in there. You're going to end up having to shove it in the boot somewhere, which is all well and good but supposing you're on a long holiday trip with not an inch of space to spare?

And that is my reason for preferring a normal wheel and tyre. On my Golf, I recently had a puncture and had to put the spare on. The spare wheel is designed without a trim in such a way that the tool kit fits inside the spare wheel compartment - but not if one of the normal road wheels is in there. I can just about live with that.

A young mother died a late last year on a NSL road by me, she had been exieeding the speed limit with a space saver wheel fitted on the car, she had the puncture the day before.

more information
http://www.thisisgwent.co.uk/gwent/archive/2004/11/26/news1101471478ZM.html

People do seem to be oblivious to the danger of these things even when warned, I`ve seen several cars drive around for days on these things.

Some cars (e.g. many MG Rover models) have a space-saver spare wheel (or none at all) in a full-size well - therefore the wheel removed will easily fit in it.

In reality they are cost-saver spare wheels, not space-savers.

I had a puncture on the M40 about three years ago and had to drive along the motorway for about 5 miles to the next exit, feeling very exposed at 50 mph.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

But I thought the whole point of a space saver tyre was to create space that could be used for something else. What's the point of having a full size wheel well for a space saver tyre? Either that spare space is left unused, in which case there's no point in having it or, if you're car is loaded up for a long trip, and you have indeed used that spare space in the oversize wheel well, you're going to be up the creek without a paddle in the event of a puncture, because you're going to have to make space for the articles stored in the wheel well.

I have had cars with space saver spare wheels in the past; fortunately I never needed to change a wheel.

I remember that there was a problem with mixing cross ply and radials on a car when radials first came out. They even recommend you have the same tread pattern on the same axle.

I hate space savers. Have you also noticed they have the minimum alowable tread depth....

Not good in marginal weather.

_________________
Speed camera policy Kills

i hate space savers...they are just cost savers for manufacturers....i had a audi 100 ten years ago with one....it must have been one of the largest cars on the road back then and had a massive boot......i just went and bought a proper rim and tyre and threw it in the boot

Both sides of the argument.

I agree with BMWK12, the space saver will be used and then stuck back in it's (little) space again, therefore it will be available to be used again. I'm shocked by the number of motorists stranded on the hard shoulder because either their spare is worse than the one they would like to replace, or is not there at all.
My Golf has a steel wheel spare with a full 195mm width tyre. It'll do the same job as one of my regular wheels, but three alloys and a steel wheel - What would my neighbours think?!! It'd get changed ASAP!!

However...........

I have stopped drivers with space savers on at ridiculous speeds (107mph in a Fiat Punto - space saver on the front ! - that and a bit of dialogue about his manner of driving got him convicted of Sec2RTA dangerous driving )

People need to know that these are not safe at speed, especially on the front wheel. My advice would be, if you have to replace a front tyre, stick a rear tyre on the front and put the space saver on the back.

_________________
Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

I can see good arguments for being concerned about a space saver on either axle.

I guess the front would be worse in some cases (front heavy front wheel drive small cars) and the rear would be worse on more powerful rear wheel drive cars. Then there's the failure mode - most drivers are less likely to survive oversteer than understeer.

So why are you so firm about the axle Ian?

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

They are less likely to have been checked for pressure, they get stuck on when needed, and off you go. For the remainder of the journey the driver forgets he's using a space saver, he pushes the speed up to 70, 75, 80, the tyre starts to overheat then blows. My understanding is that a front tyre blow out is much less predictable than a rear tyre, and can cause much more radical course deviation.

_________________
Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

Thats' excellent general advice about spare tyre care, but your (valid) concerns have little or nothing to do with the fact that it's a space saver do they?

In fact a full size underinflated spare might be worse because it doesn't come with a speed warning.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

There's a school of thought that front tyre failures are actually more predictable than rears, as the car is less likely to "swap ends".

If a front tyre fails the steering will pull very heavily, but the instinctive reaction to steer against is the right reaction, and the other instinctive reaction of braking heavily may actually reduce the "pulling" effect. Whereas a rear tyre blowing may well take a much higher degree of skill to keep the sudden "snap" oversteer in check, and braking is much less likely to worsen things.

I know that tyre fitters tend to recommend putting the "best" tyres on the back these days if only changing an axle pair rather than all four. The belief is that understeer can be coped with a lot better than oversteer - particularly in modern cars with ABS and even electronic stability aids.

_________________
CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Good point, Paul.

The point about the change to the rear axle I believe is relevant for any tyre, not just space savers.
But a properly maintained spare is good for the speed its coded for, the space saver is coded at 50, so a good full size spare will be better than a good space saver spare at 85mph.
So if you do choose to, or forget, and drive your space saver at 85, I'd rather it was on the rear axle.


Having just had a glance at JT's post, I'm happy to learn from the wise, but it's my instinctive advice from some experience of blowout RTCs that good tyres would be better on the front. I've had rear blowouts, and hardly noticed them, although not at speed. You always notice the front blowout.

But I'm getting used to the idea that the obvious advice might not be right, so I'm all ears.

_________________
Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian