Safe Speed Forums

I'm not a bad passenger. I'll do the co-driver thing and act as an extra pair of eyes. I never lean forwards at junctions. I've more or less learned not to use the imaginary brake.

But my judgement is miles different from the passenger seat than it is from the driver's seat. I'd really like to know exactly why.

Take overtaking. From the passenger seat I fairly frequently assess a planned overtake as tight or even dangerous, but it turns out to be absolutely fine.

It's not long term familiarity with the vehicle because it's been just the same when I have been driven in my own vehicle.

It's not obviously lack of situational knowledge because I think I can see all the information required to make the assessment.

And it's not just overtaking. The same sorts of judgement error sometimes apply to braking distances and corner entry speeds.

It's as if 'being the driver' makes all the difference in the world.

Or is it just me?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

It’s me too.

I think it’s the uncertainty of knowing that the driver will do what you would expect them to do, especially when planning for the unexpected. There is also the possibility that the driver has positioned him/herself to get better observation, something you as the passenger may not be able to view or appreciate.

*cough*controlfreak*cough*

i do think it may just be the not being in control thing, you (usually) don't know for sure how the driver is going to react... and you don't have the instinctive feedback of how much throttle they've just put on etc.

i've spent countless hours in the passenger seat with a laptop or flying a datalogger whilst a colleague drives some pretty extreme stuff (emergency lane changes, limit handling etc) and their is only one of them i feel completely relaxed with..... and why? we've had exactly the same training, virtually the same experience of that kind of driving and i know that as my brain thinks it... he'll be doing it!
(my boss of the time however scared the willies out of me doing the same stuff)

talking it through in that case it's that you subconciously pick up that they're not responding to quite the same set of inputs, or not in the right way, or not quickly enough.....
... i wonder if there's something similar with your experience, its a safe overtake but the decision process and the reasons for it aren't the same as yours.

The overtaking thing is partly one of visual perspective which is why everything feels different in the passenger seat. If you went out with someone driving a left hand drive car and you were in the usual right hand seat you might find you felt differently. Different people have different levels of hazard perception and attitudes to risk so there is a good chance of being a mismatch so you feel the driver is either too cautious or too risky so it jars in your mind and causes unease.

I still imaginary brake! It annoys some people I know immensely

I get the same thing, it depends how much of a "driver" you think you are, by that i mean how you view your skills.

On the imaginary brake thing my sisters old car had dents in the passenger foot well from me hitting the imaginary brake, but then she did accelerate towards slower moving vehicles only to pop out round them.

I think the "perception" aspect is key. No-one drives exactly the same as anyone else, therefore what you observe from the front passenger seat and what the driver actually does will not fit quite right with your "mapping" of observation to car. Therefore it feels wrong and is disturbing?

If you are in the passenger seat, do you always get the feeling that the driver is too close to the hedge etc. on the nearside?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Not me. Do others?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Interesting Question!

I have always believed I reacted this way because I am prevented from completing the whole event myself.

If someone else is driving I can do all the mental calculations but not finish the sequence, which makes my brain panic.

But why does my mother-in-law react the same way? (When my wife is driving I hasten to add). She is not someone I would consider to have any advanced driving concepts.

I conclude it must be an empathy thing. Do we have 100% trust in the driver?

The following exchange on Pistonheads:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topi ... 9&f=10&h=0 (requires registration)



Vonhosen trains Police drivers, so has to live by his passenger seat judgement. I have emboldened some bits of his reply that I'm starting to think might be key.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Great thread!

Everything feels harder, faster and later when I'm in the passenger seat too. Again, even in my own car, I can watch the numbers and judge by the countdown signs to junctions etc but everything feels out of control.

I too imaginary brake - usually a lot earlier than I would when actually driving

I'm sure it's just a perception thing - because I'm never sure the driver has actually seen what I've seen - and I have no evidence of what they're planning to do until they do it. When I take action, I already know when I'm going to do it. When I'm the passenger I don't really know until it happens.

Similary, I love doing gentleman's aerobatics in aeroplanes, but I'm quite uncomfortable doing far tamer "manouvers" on a rollercoaster, for example.

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It must be a relative thing.

A passenger with little or no concept of advanced driving techniques would likely be nervious being driven by a Class 1 police driver.

Wouldn't the same be true if the roles were reversed?

That's actually very neat, but I have a feeling that it's more like a co-incidence than anything else. I suppose the real bottom line is that they are using different frames of reference.

- The class 1 passenger sees all the dangers
- The ordinary passenger doesn't understand the decisions

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I believe trust has a lot to do with it, perhaps as much as control. Consider being driven by a certain person for the first time, many passengers would definitely be anxious. However, after many hours of being driven around by that person you tend to relax (I’ve been car sharing for a while so I speak from my own experience) as you become convinced (less uncertain) that they won’t perform risky manoeuvres based on the fact they haven't (hopefully). You’ve started to trust the driver yet you gained no more control.

I've been trying to match up what people have been saying with my own experience and I now have two emergent theories:

Feedback



This is looking like a closed loop regulatory system, but the loop isn't closed when you're a passenger. It's easy to imagine how the risk model could go a little wild if you open the loop.

Calibration

Possibly running a risk model continuously as a driver keeps the thing in calibration. Looking away from the road for a few minutes might let the calibration drift. If our risk model does continuously re-calibrate itself like this, then that would be a finding of major importance to road safety.

I'm leaning towards the feedback system.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I'm generally pretty happy as a passenger, the only thing I don't like is seeing brake lights come on ahead and the driver not 'lift off' (which is my first reaction to brake lights ahead) let alone cover the brake.

My anticipation skills as a driver, I believe, comes from my roaduser experience starting as a cyclist, moving onto scooters and m'bikes and then onto cars. When I have been in the position of vunerability of two wheels, my mind is constantly asking "what if.." ..he opens that car door....pulls out of that junction...turns left pinching me into the kerb...is there diesel on that bend...etc..etc.
As a passenger I still assess the risks, but I am a little more accepting of my fate/safety being in someone elses hands, as I do when working in my risk heavy industry.

fatboytim

I'm ok as a passenger in general but tend to be more twitchy as a passenger in my own car.

I find missus CE to be an infuriating passenger though.

I think the problem is that the passenger has no idea if you've seen and accounted for the hazard.

I think I understand what you are saying - My interpretation is that, as a passenger we can go through all the motions of driving except the physical side. And that breaks the loop?

I also think that it's to do with the difference in driving ability (or whatever you care to call it). Some people I'm happy with, others - perhaps not. Those I'm less happy with don't drive as I would.

Yeah... that's the theory.

Like a heater with a broken thermostat - the system becomes unpredictable. (Too cold if the heater is always off; too hot if the heater is always on)

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

OK. I completely agreed with that - but it can only be part of the picture. If it were the whole story, for our own mental well being, we would be more content to look out the side window and remove ourselves from the loop altogether.

If there were a disparity between our and our drivers driving techniques, wouldn't that become quickly evident, even without looking? Wouldn't we start to feel uncomfortable even if we weren't trying to activate our "driving loop"?