Safe Speed Forums

ok, bit of a minority area of interest but....

i avoid it if possible but often end up on training runs down country lanes & single carraigeway roads without pavements.

by default i run on the right into oncoming traffic apart from sharp bends.
over time and after my advanced driving training i've adapted this to include amongst other things changing road positioning to maximise my observation & visibility.

in a discussion on runners world a runner who i and most others seems to disagree with argues you should run on the left, with traffic.
http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/forum/for ... =1&V=6&SP=

he presents a logic whereby a runner doing 8mph presents a relative speed of 38mph running against traffic and 22mph running with it.

if the car gains sight of the runner 1/4mile away running against traffic gives the driver 23seconds whilst running with traffic gives 41seconds. close to twice the time for the driver to respond.

i prefer to do this as 60mph as i think its rare to encounter a 30limit without pavement which in the above example gives 13seconds & 17seconds, which is more like a 30% improvement.


i'm not convinced by this logic that.

personally i'd rather face oncoming traffic to ensure I get the maximum time to assess and get out of the way if necessary.

but i'd not thought of the relative speed logic in terms of giving the driver longer to respond.

what do you think ?
if you're not a runner, hypothetically, whats the best way to handle being a slower moving road user (who isnt required by law to be on one side or the other!) ?

Anyone who unnecessarily trusts their own safety to the behaviour of others on our roads is a fool.

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Paul Smith
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The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Highway code

1: Pavements or footpaths should be used if provided. Where possible, avoid walking next to the kerb with your back to the traffic. If you have to step into the road, look both ways first.

2: If there is no pavement or footpath, walk on the right-hand side of the road so that you can see oncoming traffic.

Next
---ANOTHER reference source- says the same thing( Network rail rules ABOUT WALKING ON LIVE RAILWAY LINES )

"Wherever possible ,walk facing traffic" (WHY- it's a lot easier to see what's coming)


One is the recommendations for walking on the road, the other for Authorised persons to walk on the railway line.

Sorry - i'd put them as a higher authority than some stats conjuror.

Don't forget , running on the same side as traffic- you should look behind you every so often ---nothing in HC, BUT general recommendation by Network Rail is that you look around every 5 SECONDS.
Me - i'd sooner run facing traffic and be prepared to jump into the undergrowth in safety than have some idiot come up behind me and rely on them slowing down or blasting their horn.

As old dad said -"better to be a live coward than dead hero"

i'm amazed at the final conclusion of this response:

Back in my Scouting days we always taught (and were taught) to walk facing oncoming traffic unless in a large group when you should do the opposite.

Most of the running I do is on pavements so it's not something I've had to deal with much. However in races every one runs with the traffic, but I have done a little running on my own on an unclassified road. It's a winding road and is two lanes wide but has no center lines. One can travel quite fast down said road, not that I would know obviously . Anyway, down this road I kept swapping sides to give myself the best view and the best chance of being seen.

I think you have to use your head a bit and do what is going to be the safest at that moment in time.

Now , what i said previously was looking at double lane roads , with no pavements - single track roads - best position i'd say (having driven quite a few hundred thousand miles on them ) is position where you have maximum forward visibility and can be seen from maximum distance behind - at all times a compromise where you can see and others can see you---posibility that you might be changing sides regularly - as in rallying - to get best possible position, but with the "being seen" attitude coming into play.

Wear Hi-vis stuff - the organised runners near here have lightweight high visibility vest which makes them very easy to see even though they mainly appear to run on the pavements.

Not road running, but I spent a few minutes in the middle of a road last night picking up nails that somebody had dropped/thrown there!

Why do some runners choose to run on the road even where there is a pavement?

Surely this exposes them to much more risk.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

... maybe they have a death wish or...

last night at running we were running around the outside of a park in town along the foot path. Everything was a-ok. There was traffic, but we were fine because we were on the foot path. There were teenagers hecking us, but they were to unfit to give us too much grief. However, were were within walking distance from the train station and there was some city commuter type on a bike. Obviously he couldn't use the raod like he was supposed to. He rides up the pavement which has bushes on one side and railing on the other and only is wide enough for two people to walk along, or as it turned out, on tosser on a bike to peddle along. I was behind him but wanted to go past hime so had to find a gap in the bushes and run up the road.

I though about either hurling abuse at him or grabbing his rucksack and pulling him off, but thought that anyone that inconsiderate would be likely to punch me.

there is a section on one of my shorter long runs where the pavement is heavily cambered for a good half mile. traffic allowing i sometimes choose to save my ankles & knees and run in the flatter gutter.

i've also run down the road on bin day where the pavement is narrow.

sometimes the road is better lit & better surfaced than the pavement.

but in general i'd revert to whatever evils the pavement offers in favour of an oncoming car.

There are even half vests available - though having seen them - unless of good quality --wouldn't reccomend them - problem is most vests are nylon - and they do tend to stop body breathing.

a follow up discussion [url="http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/forum/forummessages.asp?dt=4&UTN=94888&last=1&V=6&SP="]here[/url] on rights of way crossing roads.. particularly with reference to near junctions.



comments?

Both at fault, but more the runner.

Runner should have looked over their shoulder before starting to cross the side road - it is not exactly a difficult action and could save their life. It is the most basic pedestrian safety technique that every primary school child should have drummed into them until it is automatic. What is the runner's excuse for not doing it? The extending of the finger is a clear demonstration that the runner was in "the zone" and had shut out the rest of the world, and was angered by the implication that he had acted stupidly.

The driver is also at some fault for not observing that the runner was likely to be crossing, and that the runner wasn't observing even the most basic of road safety procedures. He should have slowed down expecting the runner to do what he did, and let the runner cross in front of him. Unlike the finger however, the tooting of the horn was the correct action as it reminded the runner that he has to pay attention to what is going on around him.

In terms of the Highway Code, it is quite clear - despite common misinterpretation:

If a pedestrian is already in the road, then they have priority - if they are not, then they don't. This doesn't give a pedestrian not in the road any rights over vehicles or absolve them from their duty to check that the road will be clear.

i agree with your post (except possibly the bit about use of the horn).

the ambiguity is really at a junction.
if you can see a car indicating to enter that road but not yet in it (perhaps waiting to turn right across traffic into it), technically can the pedestrian start to cross and expect the turning traffic to yield?

obviously it is a technicality and as per the earlier discussion it's no good bein technically correct and flat.

paul's previous post applies:

I came to this thread to post complains about poor quality goods from the Acme company oh well.


The above scenario is interesting. Since the runner was on the pavement, and the car started to turn left before the runner had stepped onto the road then yse the runner is at fault.

Am I correct in assuming that if the runner was on the left hand side of the road the whole then you would have to treat them as a road user and it would be wrong to overtake then cut in front of them and turn left, same as it would be with a cyclist or another car?

That's how I view it.

The use of the horn I believe is justifiable as longs as it was a "look out" toot rather than a "get out of my way, idiot!" blast. It is obviously difficult to tell from here. the get out of my way blast is obviously bad manners and not really justified, however the look out toot is an attempt to raise the runner's awareness about what they have just done, and hopefully get them to look next time before a less aware driver runs them down when they do it next time.

as far as i'm aware a horn should be used to make someone aware of your presence.... not indicate 'look out'.
i very rarely use my horn... even when presented with numpties of all sorts simply because it usually too late to make them aware, they've already done something silly, you've already mitigated for it. i don't see that a blast on the horn at that point has any benefit.

(but a separate thread perhaps)

while running on Monday we had to run past a Italian resturant in circuits. There was a car parked half way across the pavement on double yellow lines for the duration of the session. All the while the 2 car parks that we were running in circuits past were pretty well empty.

Thoose people just make it bad for every one. We all have to drive and park and those type of actions just creat anti car feeling and measures.