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SafeSpeed

Post subject: Young driver safety

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 21:20

Site Admin

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed

Apparently Brakes 'road safety week theme for this year is young driver safety.

I grabbed this from a google cache

Quote:

Road Safety Week 2006 takes place 6-12 November 2006. The main theme for this year's event is young driver and passenger safety. We aim to raise awareness about the horrifying number of road crashes that involve young people and offer essential, practical advice to young people about staying safe on roads.

http://www.roadsafetyweek.org.uk just gives a 'server error'.

I'll need to counter a torrent of mindless drivel, I expect, so let's get all the ideas in here and do a great job.

- Real driving skills and responsibilities explained in schools before driving age.

- Pass plus encouragement

- Key definitions of real driver skills

- Danger recognition / failure recognition.

- Learning from mistakes

- the 'L test' is just the first rung - experience is highly important

- Read MIND DRIVING

- Avoid peer pressure and 'driving over your head'

- Avoid drink drive

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

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Roger

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 21:31

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Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:01
Posts: 4813
Location: Essex

I think you've got most of the bases covered there....

Expanding on "real driver skills" - most are NOT about advanced car control (such as the expansion of your recent "near miss"). That's actually way down the list. Long before then comes hazard recognition and hazard preconception (ie from a given scene, what hazards are possible that you can't see). snatching glimpses where you can... usual gumf.

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botach

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 22:45

Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9264
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK

Now -saw a bit from some "safety " team ,where they want the age limit raised to 18 for a licence.
My 2p - lets get them at school - every school to provide basic highway code education, and AT LEAST a bit on the theory of driving. The younger we get them on the right track , the better.fOR A LOT OF YEARS THE AGE OF 17 HAS STOOD THE TEST OF TIME - it's not age ,but inexperience that causes the problems. Lets get the kids of tomorrow up to speed on how to and the the theory of driving before they leave school - get them on the side of legal driving and what is so wrong with being illegal - As Tone says "Education,Education,Education"

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PeterE

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 23:38

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Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6735
Location: Stockport, Cheshire

Some of the "safety" lobby have opposed any form of driver education in schools as they claim it encourages people to drive at an earlier age.

That strongly hints at their real agenda.

This is another sad example of young people needlessly dying on the road reported today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6112356.stm

Unfortunately so much of today's propaganda implies that if you're sober and within the speed limit you're indestructible.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

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botach

Post subject:

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 00:03

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Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9264
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK

Sadly - Pete - get the young enough - teach them the safety routine - educate them and then old habits are hard to break. Why doesent this Govt realise that kids will drive - better legally with the correct training and safety advice than illegally as a menace to all.(Unless they are on a scheme to correct the bad habits of joyriders) :roll:

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Ernest Marsh

Post subject:

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 02:35

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Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 00:15
Posts: 5232
Location: Windermere

This will give you a clue as to what the end result will be...

Stephen Ladyman with his head stuck in the sand.. wrote:

Thank you for you letter of 4 October to Douglas Alexander about restrictions on newly qualified drivers. I am replying in view of my responsibilities for road safety policy.

We are concerned that there are too many young driver (and passenger) casualties. We did consult in 2002 about various possible restrictions, such as on engine size, night-time curfews and the compulsory use of probationary ‘P’ plates. We concluded that the benefits of imposing such restrictions would be outweighed by the disadvantages. Among other things, such restrictions on all new drivers could reduce employment and further education opportunities, especially in rural areas, and would unfairly penalise the majority who are safe and responsible.

We do not believe that a restriction to low powered cars would be effective. Even small-engined, low powered cars can be driven at speeds well above 70mph and certainly faster than is suitable for many road conditions. Such a restriction could also prohibit even sensible use of a family car which would restrict the gaining of experience, which is so valuable for new drivers. The present restrictions in respect of motorcycles were introduced because of concern about the type of high speed mopeds ridden by inexperienced riders. We believe the current licensing age limits achieve the right balance between young people’s need for independence and mobility and the high potential for accidents involving young riders. Following the introduction of the speed restriction there was a significant drop in serious injuries and deaths in the 16 year age group of moped riders.

We consider that the way forward is a better standard of training for learner drivers. The Department’s Driving Standards Agency (DSA) is developing modern learning techniques to help learners develop safe driving skills for life. It is also reviewing the regulatory arrangements for Approved Driving Instructors to ensure that learners can get high quality training. This includes developing advice on how instructors can tackle inappropriate or undesirable driving behaviour and attitudes. We also continue to strengthen the driving test and have introduced the hazard perception test to help learners develop better hazard awareness skills.

The Government wants to encourage more newly qualified drivers to take Pass Plus training but we have no plans to make it compulsory for them to do so. The DSA has recently stepped up its promotion of the scheme. An awards scheme has been established for instructors who demonstrate excellence in marketing Pass Plus, and around 400,000 college students now receive information on Pass Plus in their fresher packs at the start of the first term. An increasing number of new drivers are taking part voluntarily - currently some 15% of pupils who pass their test.

We are also strengthening the law to help improve driver training in the future. The Road Safety Bill, currently before Parliament, contains proposals for new provisions to provide for higher standards of professional instructors, better assessment processes and the availability of information that will enable the learner driver to make an informed choice about what instructor to use.

We believe that our approach and the measures proposed by the Bill will contribute to better training that should lead to an improvement in driving standards.

STEPHEN LADYMAN

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

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Stephen

Post subject:

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 02:42

Police Officer

Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 22:37
Posts: 279
Location: Warrington

In my opinion over the past 5yrs or so the standard of driving in this country has fallen dramatically, and the young ones are very much among them, a tragic waste of life all round and from all aspects of road use, and why,? because we have made so many cut backs in road safety that our children are growing up with either very little or no roads sense at all . Examples of this over the past week alone in my area alone

1.6yr old crossing road on pedestrian crossing killed in company with his mother at time.

2.16yr old friend of my son killed on his 50cc scooter.

3.72yr old woman walks into path of car whilst crossing road.

Now,it doesn't matter who is to blame they are all road users and each should take care, but I dont want to lay any blame at anyones door, but its like discipline if this is taught at an early age and assisted whilst out of the family home then hopefully everyone should grow up with a basic form of respect for each other and property as an example,then surely the same goes for road safety when we grow up we hopefully respect the dangers of the road.

So, I say good on anyone or anybody of people who want to save lives of road users, and try to make our place a safer place to live,walk, or drive in, but like everything else if it costs money to implement ie educate then it is looked upon as being is it necessary.

Stephen

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PeterE

Post subject:

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 03:03

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Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6735
Location: Stockport, Cheshire

This may be a controversial viewpoint, but here goes...

When I was in my early driving years, the breathalyser had been in place for ten years. It was drummed into me that if I drank more than a couple of pints when driving, I might fall foul of the law.

I ended up being the most frequent driver within my peer group, and I took the above advice to heart. OK, maybe I pushed the boundaries a bit, and occasionally I may have driven when over the limit, but I certainly never did when I was pissed.

But I was well aware of the possibility of police enforcement, and after a couple of drinks would always be pretty careful about my driving.

Nowadays, it is different. The official message is that even a half of weak lager is unacceptable, and as far as I can see many teenagers take this very seriously. Daz in his sooped-up Corsa is almost certainly going to be on Coke Zero or Pepsi Max, and may wear that as a badge of pride.

But, there is a torrent of propaganda about the dangers of drink-driving. So the teenager who hasn't consumed a drop of alcohol will feel quite virtuous, and that may well encourage him to take risks when driving.

If "Des" thinks his status provides any moral superiority, then he may well end up becoming a dangerous driver.

I am not advocating a return to the old days, merely pointing out the unforeseen consequences of official messages.

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Ernest Marsh

Post subject:

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 04:11

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Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 00:15
Posts: 5232
Location: Windermere

This bit gets me...

Quote:

The present restrictions in respect of motorcycles were introduced because of concern about the type of high speed mopeds ridden by inexperienced riders. We believe the current licensing age limits achieve the right balance between young people’s need for independence and mobility and the high potential for accidents involving young riders. Following the introduction of the speed restriction there was a significant drop in serious injuries and deaths in the 16 year age group of moped riders.

So introducing restrictions WORKED to reduce motorcycle fatalities, but they wont consider the same for cars!
Whatever the merits of either course, it shows they DONT use results to guage success!
Stephen, not only have standards fallen, but it has come at a time of more and more vehicles on the roads!
A friend of my wifes will drive several miles if she cannot find a space to park in, where she can just drive in, as she CANNOT everse park.

Reverse parking is part of the test, so how on earth did she get a license??

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

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botach

Post subject:

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 21:56

Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9264
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK

This is brainstorming - so ----i started driving in the era of the BMC ( ALSO KNOWN AS THE BADLY MADE CAR) MINI- (either Austin or Morris, occasionaly Riley or Wolesley) and the E type.
What always amazed me was a theoretical question -

Young lad ,with rich parents , passes test in 850cc Mini , gets home and "MUMMY" feels he now is a "qualified driver " worthy of a treat - so she gives him the keys to dadies E type - half an hour later police arrive at te doorstep to tell "mummy"that her son is in hospital morgue in 5000 bits - he had not got the experience to handle that much power.

So why not do the same for cars as bikes - the financial incentive is there - oooo- loads of lovely cash from improver tests - grade cars for licences - but hey - first thing the makers would remove cash from the Govt - and the public might at last rise up and complain.Suspect the "filthy lucre " of the car makers is the turning point :twisted:

And yes - Peter - despite our fur tearing - i for one agree totally with your idea.

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malcolmw

Post subject:

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 13:23

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Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 14:26
Posts: 4364
Location: Hampshire/Wiltshire Border

PeterE wrote:

Some of the "safety" lobby have opposed any form of driver education in schools as they claim it encourages people to drive at an earlier age.

Interestingly, the diametric opposite of the sex education lobby.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

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adam.L

Post subject:

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 13:25

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Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 14:47
Posts: 1659
Location: A Dark Desert Highway

I quite like Mad Moggies approach to young drivers. They seem to trust their kids for a start and that appears to be respected. Then they get the kids competeing with each other about who can become the most highly qualified driver. That's if I've read their posts correctly..

People will always take risks when they are young, some how those risks need to be managed. Isn't there some info some where that says if you give young drivers skid pan training, they just know where the limits are a push them harder than if they'd not been given the training?

I think the driver training, well certainly young/new driver training, needs to a in a hand on shoulder in an older, wiser stylee not an YOU MUST DO THIS OR YOU'LL DIE shouting style.

Driving mentors anyone?

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Roger

Post subject:

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 14:12

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Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:01
Posts: 4813
Location: Essex

Quote:

Driving mentors anyone?

However, they need to be offered and accepted, not bestowed. One who wants to learn will learn better than one who is coerced to learn.

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PeterE

Post subject:

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 16:12

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Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6735
Location: Stockport, Cheshire

adam.L wrote:

Driving mentors anyone?

I think this tended to happen in the days when much of a learner's experience would be at the wheel of dad's car, topped up with a few lessons. Dad may not have been too hot on the physical skills of driving, but he sure as hell knew about driving responsibly.

Before I took my test (in 1976) I had done hundreds of miles in my Dad's car, and as he had an "any driver" policy I don't think it cost him a penny extra in insurance.

Unfortunately, because of modern insurance restrictions, this is now no longer possible. There is no substitute for experience behind the wheel.

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SafeSpeed

Post subject:

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 16:25

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Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed

Not all young drivers have crashes, and few have serious crashes. I believe that the figures are around 1 in 5 and 1 in 500 respectively.

If there was anything we could do to find the risky individuals, I believe we could do a lot of good with restrictions or remedial training.

Any ideas folks?

Here's a few (remember this is brainstorming):

- Psychological profiling

- Every crash involving a your driver becomes reportable (including damage onlys); the idea being that nutters will very likely have smaller crashes before they have a big one - so we get a chance to identify them before the big one.

- Fit data recorders and trigger 'attention' if there are 'many' emergency brake applications.

- Have a 'nutter hotline' so members of the public or frinds can inform the authorities of their concerns about particular individuals

- How about a fine for folk who make emergency brake applications?

- Give them an 'incident diary' and require them to fill it in honestly and accurately. They take it back to their ADI every three months or 6 months for the first 2 years.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

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Roger

Post subject:

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 17:47

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Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:01
Posts: 4813
Location: Essex

- Psychological profiling :yesyes:

. Notwithstanding the importance of attitude as a youngster, I'm going to start a new brainstorm with this one - Myers Briggs profile versus speed camera profiles. Been meaning to do it for some time.

- Every crash involving a your driver becomes reportable (including damage onlys); the idea being that nutters will very likely have smaller crashes before they have a big one - so we get a chance to identify them before the big one. :?:

I think the problem with this is that it will encourage more renegade attitudes to the legal requirements at a very early age. Hit-and-run is a very likely consequence of this requirement I think.

- Fit data recorders and trigger 'attention' if there are 'many' emergency brake applications. :?:

Great on the face of it, but likely to precipitate people braking lighter than desireable to avert an accident on the offchance that it might be adequate and avoid 'attention', with only perhaps one in five such unemergency brakings resulting in real smashups (which are now megaserious).

- Have a 'nutter hotline' so members of the public or frinds can inform the authorities of their concerns about particular individuals :yesyes:

Definitely a good idea - but needs careful downstream attention.

- How about a fine for folk who make emergency brake applications? :?:

Great on the face of it, but likely to precipitate people braking lighter than desireable to avert an accident on the offchance that it might be adequate and avoid 'attention', with only perhaps one in five such unemergency brakings resulting in real smashups (which are now megaserious).

- Give them an 'incident diary' and require them to fill it in honestly and accurately. They take it back to their ADI every three months or 6 months for the first 2 years. :?:

Nice - but will itr happen?

:idea:

compulsory black box fitted to "probationers" cars that maintains a few minutes of telemetry data either side of any excessive G-forces or exceptionally fast wheel twiddling - review at quarterly intervals?

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botach

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 18:37

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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK

Peter-- perhaps this is touching on the general malais today. (How many dads pass on their skills in any subject,or are allowed to )I arrived home with a licence - bought a car and Dad tought me the finer points.Likewise my uncle ,who had taught Dad. In my day, and yours (i suspect) it was common for Dad to have a car , or if you had one , use yours.Dad used mine , and in the early days critised EVERYTHING. He used to take great delight in parking my car in a gap i couldn't get it in.

Remember the skills passed on - just about everything included in COAST. ---and in cases more - BR moaned about "leaves on the line " -- hardly been driving when my uncle gave me a lecture on how leaves (especially on a white line ) could cause a skid/lock wheels/cause nasties.
Narrow roads - see a truck - meet him on the straight .

Quote:

Driving mentors anyone?

Was a thing of the past - when accidents were lower.
Perhaps , a driving school could include in its lessions (or price) additional lessions to be taken after the test.Or compulsary sessions in theory with police drivers ( assuming that we have any)

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Rewolf

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 09:50

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Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 16:12
Posts: 1040
Location: West Midlands

Heard the BRAKE Education Rep in Radio 5 Live this morning, and some of what was said was very sensible, e.g. Compulsory Road Safety Education in Schools. As long as the syllabus is not restricted to: a) Obey the speed limit, b) Obey a.

Then there was a lot of stuff about graduated licences and compulsory learning periods - e.g. have to spend at least a year getting licence, then at least a year before allowed to drive at night or carry a few passengers - this is their proposed mechanism for controlled gaining of experience. I can see that there is some reason behind this - for example by using a compulsory calendar year the new driver is forced to experience a whole years road conditions.

Apparently they have done a "countrywide" survey, and 1/3 of all young people have been involved in "Road Racing" (respondent interpreted the phrase) either as a driver or passenger, and has been in a vehicle that exceeded the speed limit by a wide margin.

The bottom line however is that it is primarily more rules and regulations that they want to be applied - nanny knows best, which lets face it, is what everybody is getting. The means for enforcing such rules is not particularly clear. There was almost nothing about the psychology around the issues - about how for instance a car is the first real freedom many young people have, and obviously they will want to test the limits. Perhaps they should note that the vast majority of the adult driving population have complete contempt for speed limits as they are so obviously set too low for many conditions.

So how about providing mechanisms for the limits to be tested in relatively safe conditions - what if skid-pan, track-days, and similar facilities were offered? What if Road Racing was taken off the road by offering a safer environment for them to test their cars?

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