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 Post subject: eCall
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 09:00 
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From "Intertraffic World Latest Newsletter" email, a UKIP publication.

Quote:
Total eCall

The European Commission has made its last call for all EU countries to speed up
voluntary implementation of eCall technology, which it claims could save 2,500
lives a year.
Viviane Reding, EU Commissioner for Information Society and Media, said, “Too
many people are still dying on European roads. Every week I hear about road
accidents where eCall would have helped. The time has come for Member States
and industry to move from talk to action.”
The system automatically dials Europe’s single emergency number 112 when a car
has a serious accident and sends its location to the nearest emergency service.
The EU believes that this could halve emergency response times, reduce severity
of injures, and save the lives of people who do not know exactly where they
are.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall


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 Post subject: Re: eCall
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:41 
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My question would be "What is a serious accident?"

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 Post subject: Re: eCall
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 15:45 
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malcolmw wrote:
My question would be "What is a serious accident?"


Quote:
eCall is an emergency call either generated manually by vehicle occupants or automatically via activation of in-vehicle sensors when an accident occurs.


i'd guess any number of inputs from the occupant safety system would be used.... why ?


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 Post subject: Re: eCall
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 16:22 
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ed_m wrote:
malcolmw wrote:
My question would be "What is a serious accident?"


Quote:
eCall is an emergency call either generated manually by vehicle occupants or automatically via activation of in-vehicle sensors when an accident occurs.


i'd guess any number of inputs from the occupant safety system would be used.... why ?

Ed, this is an interesting example of how people understand what is written by others. In the definition, where is the word "serious" and where is any "occupant safety system" mentioned?

My point is really about the enormous number of false alarms that would be generated. Just look at how the police do not now respond to burglar alarms. Don't you think that this will happen with this system?

BTW, I already have this on my current car!! It calls a callcentre - not the police etc.

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 Post subject: Re: eCall
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 16:44 
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Actually, what I am really saying is this:

The e-call system requires to know exactly where your vehicle is by means of GPS tracking using Gallileo. It's just an excuse to justify the expense of the Euro satellites and introduce road pricing via the back door under the cover of "your safety". A common political trick.

Mission creep will just mean that very soon a message will be sent straight to the police saying "Vehicle ABC123 has exceeded the NSL. Please send a fine."

And after that well, we must know who is in the car so we can save them. Just put your ID card in the slot...

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 Post subject: Re: eCall
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 20:45 
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malcolmw wrote:
Ed, this is an interesting example of how people understand what is written by others. In the definition, where is the word "serious" and where is any "occupant safety system" mentioned?

My point is really about the enormous number of false alarms that would be generated. Just look at how the police do not now respond to burglar alarms. Don't you think that this will happen with this system?


Well the word serious is in the original quote i assume you were referring to.

As for OSS, it may be my background but it seems pretty obvious to me, you have a variety of crash & impact sensors whose very raison d'etre is to establish the severity of a crash !

malcolmw wrote:
BTW, I already have this on my current car!! It calls a callcentre - not the police etc.


...and when does that phone ?.. and based on what ?


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 Post subject: Re: eCall
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 20:48 
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malcolmw wrote:
Actually, what I am really saying is this:

The e-call system requires to know exactly where your vehicle is by means of GPS tracking using Gallileo. It's just an excuse to justify the expense of the Euro satellites and introduce road pricing via the back door under the cover of "your safety". A common political trick.

Mission creep will just mean that very soon a message will be sent straight to the police saying "Vehicle ABC123 has exceeded the NSL. Please send a fine."

And after that well, we must know who is in the car so we can save them. Just put your ID card in the slot...


i knew this was coming .. same old same old

http://www.esafetysupport.org/download/ ... Callen.pdf

:x

really makes me wonder why i bother.


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 Post subject: Re: eCall
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 20:30 
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Whilst I think the system is ill thought out, and technically seems flawed.

There are a few hopeful phrases in the report but it makes you wonder why it is even being proposed.

But what can work if you have an accident and 'something' in your car can activate upon 'what' to ensure help is on it's way :
without a false alarm,
capable of being activated even if you are either unable to activate or 'limited' activation,
works even if the car is 'seriously damaged'

I have a few ideas,

In a serious accident would I be right in thinking that the steering wheel is usually 'sent off centre' ?
So activation of that single factor may reduce false requests ?

The deaf have voice activated things or 'button systems'.
Could there not be either a worn activation button (pocket / neck pendant - even marketed with style!), or push button on steering wheel and dashboard and in the rear too - perhaps by the doors too - deactivated to stop kiddies mis-using.

The 112 already give the 999 desk a high rate of false calls due to wires banging and sending a signal, 112 being much easier.
Mobile phone 999's are in their 1000's and if you don't press 55 you end up being cut off, so if you are in and out of consciousness, then you may have to call a few times before your call is taken seriously.
I had one once when the police cut the person off, I got the duty manager and they dealt with it.

What about satnav's can they help here ?
Recognise a 'sudden stop' with NO further input places a 'warning' call - your sat nav has your mobile in it and you are called back - automatically and if no reply after third call back ..... help is sent ?
Possible but not perfect for sure.
So how do you construct a method ?
One I guess that is AI capable. After all that 'golden hour' can slip by very quickly ....

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 Post subject: Re: eCall
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 20:58 
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My concern would be the police treating this as seriously as alerts from burglar alarms, i.e. not at all.


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 Post subject: Re: eCall
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 16:52 
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No they have procedures in place to notify Alarm Organisations and or attend and respond, depends on a number of factors, but the police have to go and check and ensure that all is well. In few cases alarms might have a known and prior fault report.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 17:17 
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Many GM vehicles had OnStar as standard or optional equipment in the mid- to late- naughties.

In the event an airbag deployed, OnStar would call the vehicle.
OnStar: Your vehicle has apparently been in a crash, as the airbags have deployed. Is anyone seriously injured?
Hello?
Driver: Duh ... eh ... mmm ... ow ... dammit, I'll never play football again
OnStar: We're sending emergency assistance immediately

If the airbags went off, but the driver and all passengers answered coherently, OnStar would simply follow the driver's wishes, though emergency services must be offered whenever an airbag goes off.

I share Malcolmw's & ed_m's concerns, which is why I'd pay GM for OnStar to service me before I'd pay a government body for a monitoring system it would inevitably use to service itself.

GM OnStar: "Our records show that your O2 sensors are more than 75.000 miles old. May we order you a set of AcDelco O2 sensors? Would you like us to make an appointment with your mechanic?"

Gov't OnYer@$$: " Our records show that your O2 sensors are more than 75,000 miles old. You have now ordered a set of O2 sensors from [whoever the lowest bidder is in the U.K., at a price higher than 90% of the competition.] If you do not install them within 30 days, your emissions certification will be null and void the day after, and you will be assessed a fine for every day that you fail to recertify.
"So as to mitigate your emissions, your Powertrain Control Module has received a new set of instructions. Your redline has been lowered, WOT-PE has been disabled, and the air:fuel ratio will operate lean whenever possible. You - and no one else - will be responsible for any vehicular damages incurred by your failure to maintain your vehicle to standards to which you were never educated informed or counseled.
"Have a nice day."

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1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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 Post subject: Re: eCall
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:51 
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I have now sent this following query off to V R
Quote:
I would like to know how you define 'a serious accident' ?
If many 'simple' accidents occur with little or no injury you take valuable resources away from a necessary attendance of emergency staff.
Any electronic system will fail and cause false alerts, so can it be canceled?
How do you know if it has activated if you arrive on a scene ?
If there is no mobile phone signal, what technology advantage does this have ?

I can appreciate the desire to send help when necessary and no one can call for help but I question the real world value of this and how many it will help anyway versus how many it will kill because of false alarms and wrong activations.
Plus the cost of it all is likely to outweigh any benefit, what cost projections have you ?
How much competition has been sought as many Companies will take advantage of people's ignorance to triple their profits etc ?

Always far better to stop the accidents in the first place by improving driver abilities, knowledge and skills, would you not agree?
If occupant's have to activate this 'system' why can they not simply operate their mobile phone/s ? (Or sat nav etc) ?
Therefor where is the advantage ?
And how can that 'advantage' in your view justify a massive cost?

Many times the simple answers are ignored for the sake of appearing to 'do something' than question the true viability of a system that might 'sound good' ?

I await her reply.
(Viviane Reding, Member of the European Commission, BE-1049 Brussels, Belgium
Via e-mail : viviane.reding@ec.europa.eu)

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 Post subject: Re: eCall
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 22:40 
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Found this link for the Inmarsat that is used for Maritime Distress calls - thought it worth mentioning here ...

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 Post subject: Re: eCall
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 21:02 
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malcolmw wrote:
Actually, what I am really saying is this:

The e-call system requires to know exactly where your vehicle is by means of GPS tracking using Gallileo. It's just an excuse to justify the expense of the Euro satellites and introduce road pricing via the back door under the cover of "your safety". A common political trick.

Mission creep will just mean that very soon a message will be sent straight to the police saying "Vehicle ABC123 has exceeded the NSL. Please send a fine."

And after that well, we must know who is in the car so we can save them. Just put your ID card in the slot...


You've got one supporter - but you forgot the phrase "and put your debit card in the other " :D :D

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 Post subject: Re: eCall
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 01:32 
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Trouble is, Rush's seemingly absurd image of the future is quite doable now! And if you don't think someone, somewhere, isn't thinking of it or capable of taking it further - well shame on you IMO!

If someone had said to me 20/30 years ago that a camera could/would one day identify me by a snapshot of my car, (ANPR), I would have said that's the stuff of Orwellian fiction!

I don't believe our useless country will lead the way to defeating this Big Brother state where we all become numbers. The lead will come from the rest of Europe or America. Some of the technology is good and I welcome it! Like all advances it can be used for good and bad.

But how nice to keep tabs on ‘your subjects’ and their every move and how long before the government uses it to their advantage? All in the name of protecting us from ourselves of course... :roll:

It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better IMHO.

Yours faithfully

#31415926535

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 Post subject: Re: eCall
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:55 
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It's a good idea that will be ruined in the implementation as with many things. There are so many different scenarios that it could miss and other scenarios that could create false alarms. Might be much easier to tell someone where you're going and when you're likely to arrive.... they alert people when you haven't arrived. Phones have A-gps a lot these days which pin points someone quite well. There are tracking services. If they're opt in and allow persons you trust to check you're ok then I think it is less of an issue than authorities having access to this data. New phones are starting to have accelerometers so they'd know if you'd stopped moving. But you could have pulled off the road for a snooze or shoved the phone into a cubby hole.

In car cabin camera would show the state of the occupants but again you have privacy issues with this too. How would you tell whether a driver was asleep and ok or unconcious?

Bluetooth vital signs monitor???

How many people do run off the road and aren't discovered? Is it not just a case for having better fencing which keeps people on the road rather than off it? Are motorcyclists more at risk than car drivers? Is it something which regular police patrols along rural routes could solve more easily as they'd see tyre tracks or sudden holes in hedges?

It's a great idea but I don't think there is a sensible and workable solution that is better than letting people know where you're going and having regular patrols on a route.


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