Safe Speed Forums

I have to agree with some of the points, mainly that it is hard to justify choosing a safe speed above the limit when you could simply choose a safe speed that is within the limit and be legal.

This is excellent advice, and I would gladly follow it if the limits where applied sensible, consistantly and independantly

IMHO this random limit setting that we have at the moment could be partly responsible for the loss of trend in the stats. 15 years ago, M/ways and D/c where 70, NSL was 60, main roads where 40 and town roads where 30. If a main road was only 30 then there was a damn good reason for it.

Nowadays, thanks to the PC brigade, we have 30 on D/C, random 60's on Motorways - the whole thing is a mess. Because of this when you come across a road that has a hidden danger and is 40 for a good reason, you find most motorists tend to ignore it and do 45-50.

They have lost faith in the posted limits.

If all limits nationwide where re-considered by an independant panel, and low limits where only implemented where a real danger existed (and M/ways where upped to 90) - then I would no longer speed.

Amongst other things we can and should talk about changes to the law and the Highway Code. Nothing is cast in amber when we're here campaigning for real change.

We should find a formula that legitimises practical and responsible reality. For example around 60% of cars are speeding on motorways, and it cannot possibly be right that the line drawn by the law criminalises more than half of the driving population in this way. If more than half the driving population were reckless fools, then perhaps we would have no choice.

Reality is quite different. Almost everyone speeds and only a few are reckless.

We (Safe Speed campaigners) have to suggest realistic alternatives because the law and it's enforcement simply are not working.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Actually I doubt that ths is true.

Safe Speeds vary according to:

- width of road
- length of view
- presence and behaviour of other road users
- characteristics of our vehicle
- time of day / daylight / darkness
- weather conditions
- gradient
- skill and knowledge of driver
- other hazards

All these are going to vary wildly from time to time within each speed limit zone. So much so that the speed limit is almost always the wrong speed to drive at.

We need well set limits AND discretionary enforcement to deal with the range of variation that the real world offers.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Very interesting thread this one, can see valid points from both sides. I think the problem lies with speed limits being static but immediate road conditions being incredibly dynamic.

So how should a speed limit be set? Do they take the average 'maximum safe speed' for the road conditions, (very simple example - for 50% of the time, 20mph is the max speed, and for the remaining time, 40mph is the max speed, so they set the limit at 30mph?). Or is the speed limit set to maximum safe speed under the most hazardous conditions, (meaning that most of the time it would be safe to exceed it)?

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Why can't we just use Common Sense?

Paul,

I agree with everything you say but there is another reality to consider. That is the preception that many will hold of the sort of people who support campaigns like SS. They want to point the finger and say (in a finger wagging owners type voice)...

"Look at those fools, thinking they know best, thinking they should be allowed to flout the law when it suits them. They aren't road safety campaigners at all, they are just arrogant idiots who want to drive as fast as they like, when they think they know best."

And I don't really wish to be associated with that type of accusation because it doesn't represent my take on life.

Sigh.. basingmate..

Point is this.. 30 mph in the vicinity of a school (one mile or so either way) is not a safe speed. COAST drivers are at a safe speed as in

BELOW THE SPEED LIMIT!!



Sure you are that good a driver? Go book some lessons with an ADI.. and do please - re-read the Code and RoadCraft.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
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We use our smilies on YOU today
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Well then, you should be angry because the accusation is false.

I appreciate that there's a fine line between critisizing law (and its application) and condoning - or even encouraging - law breakers. But we have to tread that line, because that's where the problem lies.

I personally find it very difficult to be critical of a behaviour that most responsible people exhibit. Where 'normal responsible behaviour' falls outside of the law, surely it must be the law (or its application) that is wrong. I guess that's why we're here.

We need fairly thick skins, because the forces that would like to brand us a 'kiddie killers' are very well resourced.

I've totally lost count of the times that I've been libelled. It's very angry-making, but that's the sort of rubbish that we are up against.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Basingmate.. on the main website - Paul has posted up a number of advanced driving tips.. braking.. plans to minimise tailgating and so on.

On the forum - we have debated tailgating to death too.

On the forum - IG has posted up his COAST message and his Hendon notes so that people can learn a few tips from the training he enjoyed at our expense as taxpayers. All safety led stuff too. Not one word about speeding... but rather that if you apply COAST - speeding dips out of the equation as the speed you travel is the safest for the conditions per the COAST system of driving. Normally this is roughly compliant to the lolly - though we admit that motorway driving could be above 70 mph on occasions And is always within the flow in Europe

But, if you follow a COAST pattern - you diffuse the hazard and minimise the levels of risk.

No one condones OTT poor driving standards by anyone - too slow or too fast for conditions - and my wife has been very critical of the 124 mph cop on the PH site and wholly supportive of the cyclist who got done for red light jumping at 5 a.m in the morning on the basis that both actions were not on "empty roads" but at times when many people would have been on the A52, Derbyshire (not a road I would drive at anything like that speed on) in the 124 mph bib affair and her stance is like mine on the RLJ.. start of the rush hour in the area in which the cop nabbed him. Thus justified call.

Fact is .. accidents are caused by COAST fails and any speed can seriously injure or kill dependent on patient, impact area. So perhaps the focus should really be on improving the standard in itself. Once you do this .. speed drops out completely. Sure - we'd still have incidents .. but they'd be more to target as regards cutting KSI.

This of course means obeying the Highway Code - which if you recall cyclists got lycra into a twist because the DSA wanted to clarify use of cycle lanes and helmets. 11,000 cyclists only petitioned and they think the changes are "dropped". Nope. Existing code still recommends using cycle lanes and correct gear. Cyclists' argumetn if you recall was that insurance companies would not pay up. Flimsy argument given the shark like business sense of these firms. Highway Code still recommends using the bike lanes where praticable as it always has done.

But then what an indictment on the lycra louts who shouted the most on this. (Most normal cyclists play the safety card anyway and use judgement - as in they ignore daft lanes anyway ) Sort of saying they object because this would make them "accountable for dangerous cycling )

Not a victory as such anyway. I hear the DSA are planning to re-word the changes anyway.

Highway Code is a common sense set of rules and advice and a good basis for planning a safe drive anyway. But like the cyclists, the bikers and the drivers.. and all who work for a living at whatever they do... experience means practice and expertise - and a little safe bending of rules too .

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

What exactly is defined as 'safe' in terms of rule bending is open to much debate.

Or on the other hand we might just delete libellous crap on sight.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Received, loud and clear, MM. It is an upper limit, and not
a goal. The driver uses his discretion to decide the right
speed within the envelope. He has no right to choose a speed
outside the envelope.

That is the message of the law and the highway code.
It is also the best message SafeSpeed could send,
independently of any thoughts he has on the means of
enforcement.

But instead, SafeSpeed insists the driver has (or should
have) a right to use discretion to choose a speed
outside the envelope. That is his central message, as
far as I can tell, but if he tells me I am wrong, I’d admit
it gladly.

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I stole this .sig

The central message is that It IS NOT SAFE to drive by the speed limit. It IS NOT SAFE to obssess about the law instead of safety. It IS NOT SAFE to use your speedo more than necessary.

And I'm sure you know that very well. You are very much in libellous mode, and it is pissing me off. Perhaps that's what you would like to do. I'd like you to be a valuable member of the community seeking and highlighting any flaw in our thinking or suggestions.

Your present tactics are unacceptable.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The forces that would like to brand the SS supporters as kiddie killers have good reason to point at some of the attitudes demonstrated throughout this forum and declare "see, they just want to speed".

Perhaps you don't agree with that or believe that 'SS- The Campaign" can dissasociate itself from the opinions of "SS - The Members". But, when you claim to have been libelled, I wonder how far such claims would get in court particualrly when you look at the stuff posted here?

I'm angry, as you say, but for a different reason. I'm angry that every day I come to work or take to the roads I come across arrogant morons or empty headed muppets; and there are more and more of them as time goes by. I'm angry that there never seems to be a trafpol around to nail them, only blessed camera vans and Gatsos.
I'm angry that, on the two occaisons I had a near miss on the bike, both of them were attributable to drivers who, when we tear off the wrapping, were trying to get into the fast lane and clog it up the motorway - this caused them not to look properly.

I value your perspective, but I REALLY don't see much around here that meets the pattern that worries you. It's all the more remarkable when you consider that this is a public forum run with the very minimum of moderation.



Hell yes. In my terms we're over 1,200 lives a year behind expectation. That forces me to believe that bad policy is now responsible for a good third of road death. That's the main reason I gave up work to run this full time, over three very hard years ago now.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

My sentiments too!

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

RP - WE SEEM TO DISAGREE OFTEN -- THIS TIME I'M 100% BEHIND YOU - i know i shout - i'm angry too, but your statement says all i'd like to say.
.
Carry on like that - this time you've got an ally. Maybe not one you want - but an ally.

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

True - much is in the depths of common sense... blipping over a limit, exceeding a speed limit to get back to lane should muppet in the inner lane increase speed just as you are 80% of the way past and this places you in danger as you want to return to the lane and maintain your two seconds minimum of space... and then the only red light jumping I can justify for a cyclist ... the pelican with no one there as they crossed on a red man or pressed and ran

The sort of thing a proper professional BiB would not even blink over.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Riggers - there are a couple of things other than libel which could be used instead. I suggest when basingmate has calmed down - had a tepid shower.. cool drink - he could google for a couple of statutes .. as in

"malicious", "abuse" and "act"

Currently some legislation going to hit the Education Act (always amazed me that I cannot take photos of my kids in a school play - but they can put a load of personal stuff on some school website , blogs on MSN and become victims of cycber bullying and worse)

Will spill over into all thingss netty - £1000 fine for malicious abuse on the internet is up before parliament next session . Originally aimed at promoting parental control - only as we know - internet cafes are used - so how does a parent know?

Well.. I know exactly what goes on in kitten corner as I police it and have all kinds of blocks set up to protect the kids. Not sure what they do at a mate's though - but do talk to their pals' parents.

But ... likely this legislation could spill over given malicious blogs and La Petite Anglaise or whatever she calls herself blogging in works' time and commenting on her boss Slightly off topic but since the ugly head of "hot and angry personals" was raised .. things could be a-changin' to gove a little more protection. After all - you would not be rude face to face - nor would such anger get printed in the press either.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

As usual mate - nub of the problem and why we are all angry about the sheer naive stupidity of the authorities believing a cam magically raises driving standards and makes all KSIs disappear overnight..

When it's really standards and a different set of atitudes and skills we should be developing in all road users.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.