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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:36 
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Reuters

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Drivers of 4X4s warned about big blind spots

LONDON (Reuters) - Drivers of 4x4s were warned on Tuesday some of their off-roaders have blind spots twice as large as those of a normal-sized family saloon, representing a major safety hazard to other road users and pedestrians.

Tests undertaken by MIRA -- formerly the Motor Industry Research Association -- found popular SUVs (Sports Utility Vehicles) like the Land Rover Discovery and Freelander, Grand Jeep Cherokee and Hyundai Santa Fe, had the largest blind spots of 24 cars tested.

"Because of their size, 4X4 vehicles require thicker A-Pillars (the columns which separate the windscreen from the front windows) than smaller vehicles in order to maintain their structural strength," said Nigel Doggett of Autoglass -- the company which commissioned the research.

"It is of particular concern considering the high volume of 4X4 vehicles used to pick children up from school, and parent-drivers must take extra care to ensure they've seen all of the hazards around them before setting off," the managing director of the glass company said.

More than 25,000 road accidents happened last year where a failure by a driver to see objects after looking contributed to the collision, according to government statistics.

The MIRA tests included a calculation of the A-Pillar blind spot, the 'A' Spot which refers to the width of objects hidden from a driver's vision from 23 metres -- the recommended stopping distance at 30 mph.

The worst performing 4X4 tested was the Grand Jeep Cherokee with an A-spot of 4.5 metres compared with the Audi A4 which had an A-spot of just 0.3 metres.

"The latest research from Autoglass shows that A-Pillar blind spots need to be acknowledged, especially on 4X4 vehicles," said Adrian Walsh, director of RoadSafe, a group which campaigns to reduce traffic deaths and injuries.

Many SUV drivers cite safety concerns as a reason for buying the big, expensive vehicles, believing bigger is safer.

But, the European New Car Assessment Programme, which carries out crash tests, found many 4x4's offer no more protection to occupants than the saloons.

And most 4x4s score badly in terms of pedestrian safety. Research from Trinity College Dublin in 2005 found pedestrians hit by 4X4s were twice as likely to die as those hit by a hatchback or saloon car.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:22 
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"It is of particular concern considering the high volume of 4X4 vehicles used to pick children up from school, and parent-drivers must take extra care to ensure they've seen all of the hazards around them before setting off," the managing director of the glass company said.


Which they should be doing anyway. :x

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:40 
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Drivers of 4X4s warned about big blind spots


I'm really disappointed with the way this story has come out. It reads like a 4x4 bashing expedition and does nothing to warn drivers of other vehicles of the very real problems. Shameful.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:42 
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More anti-4x4 ramblings. When ever I have driven SUVs I have found the higher seating position gives far better all round visibility. If you want to bang on about a-pillar size how about convertables.

As for blind spots you would be hard pushed to beat a Transit van!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:11 
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I wonder how carefully MIRA cherry-picked the 24 vehicles tested, and what non-4x4s were chosen, because IME their results are way off the mark.

As someone who regularly drives both a Mitsubishi Pajero and a Citroen Dispatch, I must disagree with the article. The Pajero's A pillars are much less of a problem than the ones on the Citroen. Now the Dispatch pillars are identical to those of the Synergie, 806, and Ulysse and similar to those on most MPVs and a good many other family cars. Ergo, the A pillars on those vehicles are more of a problem than those of a Pajero.

The difference is the angle of the A pillars. On the Pajero, they are more upright and so tend to obscure a narrow, vertical band (i.e. obscure a relatively small horizontal section), whereas on the other cars they are more inclinded and so tend to obscure both horizontally and vertically.

On the Dispatch, it is common for the A pillar to "track" conflicting traffic on the approach to roundabouts and junctions and for taller drivers (like me), for the offside pillar to obscure the road completely on some right-hand bends (I often have to press my head against the side glass or move my head to the centre of the vehicle to get an adequate view). In contrast, the A pillar on the Pajero obscures a very small part of my field of view and I only have to move my head an inch or two to see around it.

Now the Discovery 2 has similar pillars to my Pajero and IIRC from the last time I drove a Disco, they are no more a problem than mine. So the claptrap from MIRA doesn't hold water. The real problem occurs from making cars more aerodynamically slippery, which has the A pillars closer to the horizontal. This means that those pillars are longer and, because they are more inclined, they need to be much thicker to provide adequate vertical strength. "Aerodynamic" cars thus tend to have A pillars that obscure more and can more easily "track" conflicting traffic - and it is these cars, not 4x4s, that most often have "killer pillars".

Rather than engaging in yet more anti-4x4 bigotry, perhaps they'd be better concentrating on the very real problem that is by no means confined to any one type of vehicle.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:15 
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Safe Speed issued the following PR at 11:56:

PR375: Sorry Mate, I Didn't See You

news: for immediate release

Research findings published today by Autoglass warn drivers of 4x4 vehicles
about the dangers of A pillar blind spots.

The Safe Speed campaign has been highlighting this very real danger for years,
but warns drivers that it isn't only 4x4 vehicles that suffer these problems.

'A pillar' blind spots are believed to be a common cause of 'Sorry Mate, I
didn't See You' (SMIDSY) crashes, and are especially dangerous to bikers.

Following our work on the issue with Bike magazine, published in September
2004, Department for Transport commissioned urgent research. We believe that
the research was completed in March 2004, but it remains unpublished. We'd like
to know why.

Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign
(www.safespeed.org.uk) said: "Many cars in all classes have 'A pillars' that
are wide enough to cause potential dangerous obstructions to drivers' vision.
Safe Speed has been working to highlight the issue since 2002. Our findings,
warnings and recommendations are published on www.smidsy.org.uk.

"The warnings published by Autoglass should be extended to all drivers."

"Making cars stronger and more 'crash worthy' has had the side effect of making
A pillars wider and stronger. The effects on drivers' vision have been largely
ignored until recently."

<ends>

Notes for editors
=================

See:
http://www.smidsy.org.uk
(A site within Safe Speed)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:33 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Safe Speed issued the following PR at 11:56:

PR375: Sorry Mate, I Didn't See You

. . . . .
. . . . .

Following our work on the issue with Bike magazine, published in September
2004, Department for Transport commissioned urgent research. We believe that
the research was completed in March 2004, but it remains unpublished. We'd like
to know why.

Is that a typo with the dates??? Should that be March 2005?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:41 
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supertramp wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
...We believe that
the research was completed in March 2004, but it remains unpublished. We'd like
to know why.

Is that a typo with the dates??? Should that be March 2005?


Yeah, It is a typo. It should be March 2006. Thanks.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 13:35 
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It’s funny, I wonder who direct line used to conduct their independent research. Auto Glass are used by direct line. With all the news to do with insurance lately it makes you wonder if theres something going on.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 15:51 
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Yes, what is going on is the insurance companies are doing surveys to find excuses for raising premiums far beyond inflation. :x

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 18:53 
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Pulled up next to a Citroen Pluriel (or puerile as I perfer to call it) that has got to have the W I D E S T "A" pillar in the world. Just check them out next time you see one.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 09:43 
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My TT was terrible for it.

Why not some 'blind spot' THINK adverts instead of the emotive speed kills rubbish?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:21 
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malcolmw wrote:
Yes, what is going on is the insurance companies are doing surveys to find excuses for raising premiums far beyond inflation. :x


Yup. Well spotted. The government has already orchestrated a cash grab against 4x4 onwers, the insurance companies want a piece of the action.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:06 
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r11co wrote:
The government has already orchestrated a cash grab against 4x4 onwers, the insurance companies want a piece of the action.

Actually, they haven't. Motorists are getting shafted wholesale on the back of unreasonable anti-4x4 bigotry and many who thought they were in the clear because they didn't drive one of those "dastardly monsters" had a nasty wake-up call at VED renewal time.

What the government have done is increase the vehicle excise duty so that those that emit more CO2 per kilometer pay more. Because of this, many 4x4s on the road today are now subject to lower VEDs that many luxury cars, repmobiles, etc.

FWIW, the woman across the road for me is absolutely livid that she must pay more VED on her StreetKa than I must on my Pajero. She's one of Berry's Bigots, and I must admit to taking delight as I cautioned her to be careful what she wished for in future!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:14 
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willcove wrote:
Actually, they haven't. Motorists are getting shafted wholesale on the back of unreasonable anti-4x4 bigotry and many who thought they were in the clear because they didn't drive one of those "dastardly monsters" had a nasty wake-up call at VED renewal time.


Yeah. I was aware of that*. What I should have said was the government orchestrated a cash grab on the back of 4x4 prejudice.

*VED went up £25 on my wife's Citroen Saxo thanks to its two stage catalytic converter system and very effecient low CO/high CO2 combustion system. The amount now matches that paid by my father for his rather large engined Audi A8.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 14:03 
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willcove wrote:
The difference is the angle of the A pillars. On the Pajero, they are more upright and so tend to obscure a narrow, vertical band (i.e. obscure a relatively small horizontal section), whereas on the other cars they are more inclinded and so tend to obscure both horizontally and vertically.



I've found it to be the opposite to be honest. A vertical pillar of the same cross-sectional thickness as a raked pillar obscures the view from both eyes over a wider field of view. With a raked pillar, the area that is obscured to one or other eye might be bigger but the area obscured to both eyes at the same time is smaller because it slopes.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 14:17 
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Mole wrote:
willcove wrote:
The difference is the angle of the A pillars. On the Pajero, they are more upright and so tend to obscure a narrow, vertical band (i.e. obscure a relatively small horizontal section), whereas on the other cars they are more inclinded and so tend to obscure both horizontally and vertically.



I've found it to be the opposite to be honest. A vertical pillar of the same cross-sectional thickness as a raked pillar obscures the view from both eyes over a wider field of view. With a raked pillar, the area that is obscured to one or other eye might be bigger but the area obscured to both eyes at the same time is smaller because it slopes.

I can only go by my own experience. I've lost count of the times the pillar on my Dispatch has tracked oncoming traffic while approaching roundabouts and junction. The worst case was when my nearside pillar tracked a Goldwing and trailer for over two hundred yards and it was only my wife's warning that stopped me from pulling out on him. (That was a few days before the SMIDSY alert). On several right-hand bends, the offside pillar of the Dispatch completely obscures the road ahead and I have to move my head some way to see around the obstruction. OTOH, I've never had such problems with a Pajero or Discovery.

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