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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:15 
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For the last eight months the government has been consulting on how best to ease congestion: its solution is a new piece of road, which drivers will pay to use.


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The government hasn't got a limitless supply of money. We need to think of innovative and exciting solutions, which this is


Should be: "the government hasn't got any money, we get all of it from the people. They will continue to pay anyway, but the financial industry will pay for the improvements and charge the users to get the money back, much like they got their customers to pay for their last disaster"

I guess I'll be looking at "innovative" ways to avoid paying to use a road I already paid for anyway.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-18913663

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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 Post subject: A14 upgrade.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 04:00 
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A14 upgrade to be toll road paid for by motorists
Deborah McGurran Political editor, East of England
Congestion on A14 There are plans to introduce a toll road to upgrade part of the A14 through Cambridgeshire
The government has announced that our most congested road, the A14, will be tolled.
For the last eight months the government has been consulting on how best to ease congestion: its solution is a new piece of road, which drivers will pay to use.
The trunk road links the country's largest container port in Felixstowe, with the M1 and M6 motorways, from where goods are whisked to the rest of the country.
That's after spending many an hour in gridlock on the 130 mile length of the A14.

The stretch through Cambridgeshire between Cambridge and Huntingdon is particularly busy and that's where the changes will happen.
Tackling delays
South Cambridgeshire MP, Andrew Lansley, welcomed the news: "We all know we need the A14 to be rebuilt.
“The business community is somewhat concerned about tolling but I think we believe it's a necessary evil if it is the only way we can get the road upgraded.”

John Bridge Cambridgshire Chamber of Commerce
In tough times, if it's going to happen it can't just be paid for by the government - people who are using the road will have to dig into their pockets.
"The A14 has stopped Cambridge from growing and it's an impediment day by day to people going about their business," he added.
The plan to upgrade this vital artery through the region will cost up to £1.5 billion.
More then 100,000 vehicles a day travel through Cambridgeshire, a quarter of them heavy good vehicles.

Delays frustrate motorists and cost businesses a fortune.
John Bridge from Cambridgeshire Chamber of Commerce gave the plan a cautious thumbs up.
He said: "The business community is somewhat concerned about tolling but I think we believe it's a necessary evil if it is the only way we can get the road upgraded."

While the local MP for Huntingdon, Jonathan Djanogly (Con) had warmer words: "The east of England needs this road to develop the area and without it, particularly as the economy picks up, it's going to be an increasing problem, so it's important we get on with it."

'Innovative' solutions
For many years there's been talk about improving this road but every time, drivers hopes have been dashed.
A14 traffic The last scheme to improve the A14 was dropped because it was too expensive

The last scheme, backed by Labour, was dropped by the coalition because it was too expensive.
A toll road is obviously attractive to the government as it doesn't have to pay for the upgrade.

Private finance will stump up the money and and motorists will pay.

"HGV's can take the toll road and everyone else can use the local access roads," says Andrew Lansley.
"The government hasn't got a limitless supply of money. We need to think of innovative and exciting solutions, which this is."
The eastern region suffers from poor transport links, particularly east to west. No doubt this will go some way to help.
The government says it wants construction to start in six years time.

Isn't that after the next general election?

I have quoted the article for easy of reference to discuss.

I have noticed too this perpetual decision Governments make to sell of 'our' assets to raise a quick buck and then a profit making Company (who have to please shareholders or have to run in profit) are left to decide how much we get charged for something that previously only needed to run effectively and at cost.
I agree they have to raise funds that are substantial to build roads (and to the high spec required these days) but surely there has to be other ways around this if Gov is too poor to pay for them?
The M6 Toll is not as popular as they would have liked and I wonder how they can afford to keep it going !

Is it time we made roads from types of concrete perhaps ?
Or why not just agree proper terms to pay it back to private enterprise from the money they already receive from us ?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 09:42 
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The government has no money. It gets it all from us, one way or another. Even when they borrow the money, it's us who pay it back.
Same with the new roads, the government gives the contract to private companies who then charge us to use it. So we pay for it. The GOVERNMENT bill is smaller, but the taxpayer bill is larger. IE: We pay for it directly instead of indirectly.
There is not even any guarantee that the road/s will be fit for purpose for any real amount of time. All the new road projects in this county have had "problems", in one case massive subsidence and in many other cases minor subsidence, collapse of verges, drainage problem....etc. Now, you may say, this happens anyway....but after the contract expires, who pays then ?
Well, the taxpayer is always the one who pays.
And don't start the "the driver should pay"
Everybody pays, one way or another.
More traffic for the side roads, unless they out the sign: "toll road in a mile, no may out of it now" in an unnoticeable position....
I suppose I'll have to use the "don't use toll roads" option..

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 18:06 
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"HGV's can take the toll road and everyone else can use the local access roads,"


Is this guy a complete moron ?

I live in Peterborough. The A14 is our major link both East & West but I can tell you this for nowt.. If they toll it then instead of us using A1 > A14> M11> M25 to get to Dover it will be

A1 >Stevenage over to A10 Enfield >M25

or the other way When we do Taunton or Redditch
(Taunton) A605 >A45 >43 >A34 >A420 >M4 >M5

(Redditch) A47 Leicester >A46 or M6 (M42)

Haulage companies simply WONT pay to use the toll.. If a driver uses it inadvertently he WONT be reimbursed. You quickly learn NOT to use tolls.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 21:17 
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Outcast wrote:
Quote:
"HGV's can take the toll road and everyone else can use the local access roads,"


Is this guy a complete moron ?

I live in Peterborough. The A14 is our major link both East & West but I can tell you this for nowt.. If they toll it then instead of us using A1 > A14> M11> M25 to get to Dover it will be

A1 >Stevenage over to A10 Enfield >M25

or the other way When we do Taunton or Redditch
(Taunton) A605 >A45 >43 >A34 >A420 >M4 >M5

(Redditch) A47 Leicester >A46 or M6 (M42)

Haulage companies simply WONT pay to use the toll.. If a driver uses it inadvertently he WONT be reimbursed. You quickly learn NOT to use tolls.


:clap: :clap:

Thye problem was way back when the 14 was thought of. Similar to the A42, in that it should have been at least three lanes wide. ( And possibly designated as a motorway ,or some idea between motorway and DC ,ot TC )

Congestion in this country is EVIDENCE of faulty forward planning. It's like the crew of the Titanic getting orders to bail ,as the bow went under .

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 01:14 
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Congestion is evidence of faulty forecasting, not planning.
Correct forecasting leads to correct planning.
Someone made the faulty forecast that road traffic was going to fall, probably because they wanted it so.
Rather like the population problem.
Everyone was crowing about the population falling until it suddenly dawned on them it meant the population was aging....and the retired would soon outnumber the working...now we have todays 30-year-olds who will not reach state retirement age until they are in their 70's. In a few years time we will be penalising the state pensioners who do not have a 9-5 job !
Someday soon the gov will realise that it is never right, frequently wrong, and everytime stupid.
Until then the whole sorry state will continue to sink into the pit of s**t is has constructed for itself.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 14:33 
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jomukuk wrote:
Congestion is evidence of faulty forecasting


But not really in the sense that you mean. It is, if not impossible, very difficult to reduce congestion by building roads. Increase the capacity of a road and more people will use it. Rail commuters will shift back to their cars and a new equilibrium will be reached where the congestion is just the same. Improved roads merely encourage people to travel more, to work and shop further away from home.

If we had stopped building roads in 1970 congestion would be no worse than it is now. There would be far fewer motor vehicles and much greater reliance on public transport. More goods would;d be moved by rail and there would be a greater degree of localism

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 09:42 
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It is far cheaper to move goods by road than rail, excepting those goods for which railheads exist to move FROM and TO.
If you have to factor in such things as transport to the rail depot and then delivery from the terminus it rapidly gets to be uneconomical (I once worked for a company that considered that....it was three times the cost to go rail as opposed to road....labour tends to be costly and economies of scale are lost in the amount of 7.5 tonners needed to redistribute)

If a new road is built it is usually to meet a need....such as to relieve congestion on other roads that traffic moves to to avoid congestion...the A11 between Barton Mills and Thetford is a classic...where traffic moves to the smaller roads to bypass that "bottleneck", leading to congestion on those roads (a bitch getting through Lakenheath !)
Just because a "new" road attracts traffic does not mean that the traffic is new...it may well have rerouted.
Your blanket statement
Quote:
If we had stopped building roads in 1970 congestion would be no worse than it is now
is almost certainly wrong.
In 1970 the population was 55.6 million.
In 2012 it was 63.2 million.
In that time the number of cars has risen from 15 million to 31 million.
Nowadays the young have a car, use it sometimes, but are quite willing to use PT when convenient.
Not so the older people, many of who avoid PT (I rarely use it even though I have a concessionary travel pass) (cost...)
The only thing that will limit car ownership is rising costs.......anything else either won't happen or will be avoided...watch what happens when toll roads become common...traffic will depart to other routes.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:56 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
If we had stopped building roads in 1970 congestion would be no worse than it is now. There would be far fewer motor vehicles and much greater reliance on public transport. More goods would;d be moved by rail and there would be a greater degree of localism

If we had stopped building railways in 1840 rail congestion would be no worse than it is now. There would be far fewer railway carriages and much greater reliance on horses and walking. More goods would be moved by canal and horse-drawn waggon and there would be a greater degree of localism :P

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 15:15 
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We all manage congestion by doing all we can to avoid it and when we end up in it we are frustrated. We deal with it as best we can given individual patience levels, and 'get on' when we can.
Millions must have been spent on 'traffic management' but because of space and money limitations has it really made much difference?

I have noticed the removal of many motorway roadworks for the this weeks major traffic expectations, but some of the M25 is still restricted ... was that roadworks really necessary?
Perhaps a whole re-look at when, what and why roadworks happen may in itself make the roads less congested.

I do agree that we do manage congestion by alternative route and time plotting. Flexi time was hoped to help and I reckon that it has helped but I haven't seen (not looked) for a study to show this. However I do notice and wonder if the rising popularity of the (horrid) 12hr shift might help some roads become slightly less congested at certain times ?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 23:23 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
. Rail commuters will shift back to their cars and a new equilibrium will be reached where the congestion is just the same. Improved roads merely encourage people to travel more, to work and shop further away from home.

If we had stopped building roads in 1970 congestion would be no worse than it is now. There would be far fewer motor vehicles and much greater reliance on public transport. More goods would;d be moved by rail and there would be a greater degree of localism


Pasenger wise- the approach to congestion at peak times is to jack up prices. JOBWISE -travel problem are not an option in the jobcenter vocabularly for refusal .hopping further away from home is as a result of LA parking charges/restrictions.
It's olny recently that a move from road tp rail has occurred. before that , rail companies failed to recognise the potential. It's not so long ago that the WCML was reduce to three lines from four. Then a few years ago ,NR had to spend big time to upgrade to four line working, with compulsary purchase of ground once sold off .

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