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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 18:35 
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BBC wrote:
Concern over rural driving skills

A district council in East Sussex has called for a change to the way drivers are tested and taught to ensure they are fully equipped to deal with rural roads.

BBC News investigates whether it is the test that needs altering or the attitude of drivers.

After discovering it had the worst road safety record in East Sussex, Wealden District Council set about trying to find out why.

After consulting with experts and analysing crash statistics, the council concluded that many new drivers simply did not know how to drive safely in the countryside.

Last year, 138 people were killed or seriously injured on Wealden's roads, many of which are single-track country lanes with high hedgerows.

'The biggest killer'

Council officer Dr Jeremy Leach, who was part of the research team, said the council would write to Transport Secretary Lord Adonis to urge him to look again at the test and the way drivers are taught.

"It's getting through to people that rural roads are fraught with hazards and it often demands different driving than in a town," he said.

The council's leader, Pam Doodes, said: "With rural roads, not only are they very bendy but they are very narrow so it's the awareness of dangers that could be around the corner.

"If you have not had the experience you may think you are the only person on the road."

Research published in 2007 by the Institute of Advanced Motorists (IAM) revealed that on an average day, nine people died on Britain's roads - six of these were on rural routes.

The report, called Rural Roads - The Biggest Killer, looked at crash statistics over a six-year period and found that in England, 62% of road deaths happened on such roads.

In Wales, the figure was 75% and in Scotland it was 76%.

Further training

But is it the test that needs changing or the attitude of drivers?

Mike Frisby, chief driving examiner for DIAmond Advanced Motorists, said learners were given lessons on rural driving but how much practise they got depended on how near the test centre was to the countryside.

He said the test was the "first rung on the ladder" and it was up to drivers to get further training after gaining their licence.

"Once they have that licence, that's it, they think they have done what they need to do," he said. "There should be ongoing training."

The Pass Plus scheme, which covers driving in a range of environments and conditions, was introduced by the Driving Standards Agency (DSA) in 1995 to provide further training for new licence holders.

The course is not compulsory and in 2008/2009, only 11.5 % of newly qualified drivers took advantage of it.

Stephen Haley, author of road safety book Mind Driving, said drivers needed to be taught how to manage danger and think about what is happening on all roads - something he said was lacking in the current test.

"People say you really learn after you pass your test," he said.

"The test should teach you how to drive safely but it does not. We need new drivers to be far safer than the day they pass their test."

Theory test

In 2000, the government set a target to reduce the number of people killed or seriously injured in road accidents in Britain by 40% by 2010.

It had achieved this by 2008.

The DSA said driving training was being changed, not specifically to address the issue of rural driving but to try to further reduce the number of deaths and injuries on all roads.

Its new Learning to Drive programme includes a pre-driver qualification for 14 to 16 year olds, which aims to educate young people in safe road use before they begin driving.

Changes to the current driving test are also planned, including a new assessment of a learner's ability to drive independently and new questions on the theory test.

There are also plans to trial a new version of the Pass Plus scheme.

A DSA spokesman said: "We will take forward a programme of measures that will strengthen the way that people learn to drive and are tested and create a culture of continued and life-long learning.

"We are confident that this new approach will help us to further reduce the number of deaths and injuries on the roads."

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 18:52 
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The report, called Rural Roads - The Biggest Killer, looked at crash statistics over a six-year period and found that in England, 62% of road deaths happened on such roads.

In Wales, the figure was 75% and in Scotland it was 76%.

Unless we know the the proportion of road miles classified as rural then this is meaningless. Amazingly, in places with less conurbations, a larger proportion of fatalities occur on "rural" roads. No sh*t Sherlock.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 19:32 
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But is it the test that needs changing or the attitude of drivers?


I know, let's make a nationwide NSL of 40MPH and put speed cameras every mile or so....bound to cure the problem?......How long before some "road safety expert" comes up with that one?

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 19:38 
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Already started:

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Tier 2: mixed use roads that cater primarily for motorised traffic, with limited numbers of vulnerable road users and occasional access to properties such as farms rather than frequent access to residences. A slower speed environment than for Tier 1should be sought: a suggested maximum of 50 mph, and of 30 mph in villages.Where there are vulnerable road users, ideally physical separation should prevail,with special facilities at isolated locations. Junction treatments may be required, as these are a major source of accidents on such roads.


http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/speedmanagement/developmentofaruralroadhiera4798?page=6#a1007

from:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/speedmanagement/developmentofaruralroadhiera4798

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 19:49 
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So they know that junctions are dangerous yet do nothing - claim that tey have in fact achieved their target anyway but now are going to reduce the speed on the rural roads but treat junctions due to the dangers ?
Sounds like a right old muddle.
The camera system has had so many effects on drivers and the biggest being inattention and frustration and a growing unawarenss of surroundings - they don't even question this as any causation factor - yet it is exactly what they ought to be looking at.
We need drivers to be more aware.

In the real world you can only (need) to learn so much before you get out there and start learning by experience - that is crucial. I do think ongoing tutoring is a great idea but this can be more casual and informative if done as you gain that experience.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 21:51 
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Yep it really does look like the lunatics are firmly in control of the asylum now.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 22:12 
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jomukuk wrote:

Quote:
Tier 2: mixed use roads that cater primarily for motorised traffic, with limited numbers of vulnerable road users and occasional access to properties such as farms rather than frequent access to residences. A slower speed environment than for Tier 1should be sought: a suggested maximum of 50 mph, and of 30 mph in villages.Where there are vulnerable road users, ideally physical separation should prevail,with special facilities at isolated locations. Junction treatments may be required, as these are a major source of accidents on such roads.




Just pinched your quote Jo - to make a point .

How about forgetting about tiers on roads -forget about vulnerable road users and educate --

Like educating drivers to possible dangers ,like animals on road ,or remember the old information ads -like the one with an old broken down car in a blind dip etc -the fore runner to the one aied at bikers .
Vulnerable users -time to make them responsible a lot more for their own safety -

But foremost ,stop the divide and rule tactics on road users .Time AGAIN to make the Pedestrian /cyclist /motorcyclist feel that they are all equal road users ,and contribute to their own and others safety ,and give consideration to problem road users ,like horses etc .

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 02:23 
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Reduced braking and reduced evasive capacities due to a higher probability for understeer and/or oversteer play crucial roles in collisions that take place when the steering wheel isn't already straight to begin with.
:popcorn:

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3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 01:15 
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BBC wrote:
Concern over rural driving skills

...After discovering it had the worst road safety record in East Sussex, Wealden District Council set about trying to find out why.


Ah, well, that's their first mistake! Trying to SOLVE the problem...Naive fools! Everyone knows it's just a question of having enough speed cameras!

BBC wrote:
After consulting with experts and analysing crash statistics, the council concluded that many new drivers simply did not know how to drive safely in the countryside.

There they go again! They obviously just consulted the wrong "experts"! How on earth are they going to make any money if they carry on like this!?

BBC wrote:
The council's leader, Pam Doodes, said: "With rural roads, not only are they very bendy but they are very narrow so it's the awareness of dangers that could be around the corner.

They'll be advocating "COAST" next...!

BBC wrote:
The report, called Rural Roads - The Biggest Killer, looked at crash statistics over a six-year period and found that in England, 62% of road deaths happened on such roads.
In Wales, the figure was 75% and in Scotland it was 76%.

Best impose some more 20MPH limits and fixed cameras in cities then - that's should sort it!

BBC wrote:
A DSA spokesman said: "We will take forward a programme of measures that will strengthen the way that people learn to drive and are tested and create a culture of continued and life-long learning.

"We are confident that this new approach will help us to further reduce the number of deaths and injuries on the roads."

By George, I think they've got it! Lucky we've got all those camera partnerships ready to take the credit:roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 04:11 
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Mole wrote:
BBC wrote:
Concern over rural driving skills
...After discovering it had the worst road safety record in East Sussex, Wealden District Council set about trying to find out why.

BBC wrote:
A DSA spokesman said: "We will take forward a programme of measures that will strengthen the way that people learn to drive and are tested and create a culture of continued and life-long learning.
"We are confident that this new approach will help us to further reduce the number of deaths and injuries on the roads."

By George, I think they've got it! Lucky we've got all those camera partnerships ready to take the credit:roll:

Except of course they are requiring a colossal 500 hrs ! Something that will prevent so many new drivers it will achieve what they want - less drivers! :( The whole system is so full of un-necessary fear and loathing of drivers it is unreal ... hints of training sound good but are fraught with problems ...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 14:14 
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Ah, in my haste to make a flippant post, I must have missed the "500 hours" bit - just run that past me again please?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 15:50 
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I live in a rural area, but have never felt more at risk, except in times of bad conditions on the roads - ice or fog etc.

However we do have a "Safety" Camera Partnership whose web site once displayed these helpful snippets of factual trivia:
CSCP website wrote:
In Penrith town, there are four distinct time periods for fatal and serious injury accidents – 9-10am, 12noon and 2pm, 4-6pm and 7-9pm

The A686 between Penrith and Alston had more accidents over the past three years than any other road in the area

Almost all accidents occur while vehicles were travelling straight ahead although turning right and overtaking also featured in the causation records

Most fatal and serious injury accidents in the Kendal rural area occur between 12 noon and 5pm

In common with other areas, most fatal and serious injury accidents occurred in fine, dry weather and on 30mph roads

Virtually all fatal and serious injury accidents in the South Lakes area occurred in fine, dry weather and in daylight

The majority of fatal and serious injury accidents occur in fine, dry weather without high winds and on 60mph national speed limit roads

In town almost all fatal and serious injury accidents occurred on 30mph roads

Most accidents occur on A class and unclassified roads and in fine, dry weather and day light

In Kendal town, there are three distinct time peaks for accidents – between 7am and 9am, between 12 noon and 1pm and between 3pm and 5pm.
Most fatal and serious injury accidents in the Penrith rural area occur between 12noon and 5pm

In 2004 there was a 67 per cent reduction in people killed and seriously injured at the hotspots monitored by CSC

In the Barrow area, most accidents occur at times when people are driving to or from work

Now this one appears to give a different story to the one being touted now:
CSCP wrote:
In common with other areas, most fatal and serious injury accidents occurred in fine, dry weather and on 30mph roads
- 30 mph roads are those in towns and villages. Many of CSCP's camera sites are on roads outside of villages.
Of course one conclusion would be to raise the speed limit!! It makes as much sense as everything else CSCP come up with.... like this little gem:
CSCP wrote:
Almost all accidents occur while vehicles were travelling straight ahead although turning right and overtaking also featured in the causation records

There are notable exceptions - we have had two fatalities where victims were run down by vehicles which were reversing!

Of course they contradict themselves with this one:
CSCP wrote:
The majority of fatal and serious injury accidents occur in fine, dry weather without high winds and on 60mph national speed limit roads

I must look up the difference between "MOST" (30 mph fatals) and "THE MAJORITY OF" (60 mph fatals)!!

They removed these eventually after I quoted them several times, as it clearly showed them up as the incompetent buffoons they really are!

If this latest news item is based on crap statistics such as these, then it won't be woth the paper it is printed on!

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 00:39 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:

If this latest news item is based on crap statistics such as these, then it won't be woth the paper it is printed on!


Ern- now getting to the opinion that most SCP should look at Andrex as the most informatrive media ti print on - and where we can show our appreciation of their efforts to make us safer drivers :( :o :o

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 07:00 
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Return to mean:

2008 19
2007 12
2006 17
2005 17
2004 18

I couldn't find any earlier figures however with such a small sample you would have to use a rolling average of several years to gauge the result of any "improvements".

Since around mid-late 2006 there has been significant increase in mobile camera activity and many speed limits have been reduced. Recently they have taken to setting up late at night and even have setup here:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&oq=&q=51.02+0.1085&um=1&gl=uk&resnum=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=%2B51%C2%B0+1'+12.00%22,+%2B0%C2%B0+6'+30.60%22&gl=uk&ei=vZGUS5CQFZD80wSC67zkDA&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ8gEwAA

which is frankly madness. This stretch is windy and tree lined the last place you need to be coming across added unnecessary surprise hazards distracting you from those that already exist. The only saving grace is that the 2 side roads have light traffic usage.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:08 
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Rural accidents are more frequently caused by loss of control than urban crashes I would assume.

While the driving test is really about main roads and urban areas.

I'm glad I learned in a market town which necessitated driving 15 miles to get to as I got a good mix of roads. When I went to London two years later, it was like a really big Dorchester so I was able to adapt quite quickly.

If I'd learned in London, I would have had big knowledge gaps if I'd then moved out to Dorset.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 18:14 
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Yep, I too lived in a small town and used to drive in excess of 30 miles, to college/work and back on mainly rural roads, when I first learnt to drive and although I the spent the next few years driving round a very built up west mids, as a service engineer, I still feel far more comfortable, when driving (at any speed) on "the open road", than in built up areas.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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