Safe Speed Forums

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I could comment. I think I will let others read and post what they think.


I know what I do think and it's how automation fails yet again... but do discuss. I am more interested in wurzel/weepej opinions here. I admit.

By the way as a friendly gesture to wurzel. My sisters teach French as well as Maths and IT . One of them taught the class the word for bird.. "oiseau".. but found her class was writing it as "wurzel or wuzzle" as they "thought that was what she said"

I hope you appreciate and laugh with me over this.

But are you a descendant of a dinosaur Sorry wuzzy-wazzy mind.. I could not resist a little fun there

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Well, my first thought is how frustrated I get at this sort of nonsence...



It is just as valid to claim that if he had been driving at 60 he would have passed Mr Watson before he started to cross the road in the first place!

I wish barristers would have the guts to question this sort of rubbish

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

If he was doing 60 he could have hit someone else, which is just as invalid as your and the experts statements. Sorry, I do not disagree with you exactly however I think it is better to show such statements are wrong rather than partially correct.

I would probably have to agree that Mr Griffin was driving too fast for the conditions if:

it could be shown that the driver was unable to see Mr Watson before he stepped into the road, i.e. could not stop in the distance the driver could see to be clear.

the drivers speed was such that Mr Watson would not have been aware of the vehicle before beginning to cross the road. It could also be partially contributory that even if aware he could easily make the incorrect assumption that he would have the time to cross in front of a vehicle travelling at or near the speed limit.

a competent driver would assess the road scene and conclude there significant risk (open to interpretation I know) that a pedestrian could step into the road with little or no warning.

The other side would be that Mr Watson did not look and simply stepped out though even this would not excuse a driver from travelling faster than a pedestrian would reasonably expect them to be.


There are probably more points and they could perhaps be stated rather better I hope the idea I am trying to convey is clear though. The speed at impact may well have killed Mr Watson but it was the poor driving which appears to have caused it and we should push for such cases to be reported in this way.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

yes , you are correct, but basically (as you seem to accept) the contributory events that lead up to an accedent of this nature involve multiple factors. most of which are completly unpredictable and not under any meaningfull controll of the parties involved (Like, for instance, if that set of traffic lights 10 miles back had been green rather than red) see also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB9lUXMuiHg. Picking on one of those factors and stating that "This was the cause of the accident" may tick the boxes but does not help the analysis

For "experts" to make sweepng statements of this nature is seriously missleading unless there are very good reasons to justify them.

(such as hurtleing round a corner at a speed (which neeed only be 20 MPH if the corner is tight) which is clearly greater thanwould allow a safe stop in the event of encountering an unexpected obstical)

Without knowing the layout of the road where the accident occured it is hard to say. But , if the road is streight and relativly clear there is no great deal between 30 and 40 and the most likly explanation is simple observation failure of one or both parties. concentrating on the speed factor is misleading. what we really need to know is why one or both parties were not looking where they were going

but, as you say, it is the reporting that is the real problem. A bit like the case discussed elswhere where the Wail reported that the recovery driver was a pothead despite the fact that the experts (in this case) clearly stated that the residula blood levels were minute and not a contributory factor in the accedent

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Sorry, my link doesnt seem to work.

Go to Youtube and search for "Speed saves". It should be at the top of the list. Some of you have seen it before.

D

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Bear in mind that the experts statement would have been far more expansive than the 'sound bite' the reporter used.

I think I have read too many of Rigger's posts recently ( @ Rigpig ) my key point being that we do not know what the experts said only what the reporter entered as copy - which may even have been edited further!

On the 30/40 thing; I obviously, I hope, do not think that exceeding a speed limit is automatically dangerous. My stance would be that irrespective of whether the speed limit is set correctly or not the burden of safety shifts towards the driver if they are exceeding the posted limit. The other side would be that if the driver is travelling at around the limit or particularly if the driver is at a speed appropriately below the limit the pedestrian is very much responsible for not stepping out in front of a the vehicle. I simply base this on the idea that other road users, especially non-drivers, should reasonably have an expectation that vehicles will be travelling at around the posted limit.

Of course that limit could be wrong

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

IMO, too much is made, in certain circles, of such expectations. In reality, a pedestrian planning to cross a road in such a way so as to not cause an oncoming car to have to slow down for them, would have to grossly underestimate either the speed of the vehicle or the length of time it would take to cross the road in order to be in any danger of being hit - assuming a reasonably alert driver. Even then, they'd be cutting things a bit fine.

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

Some people are very poor at estimating speeds unfortunately.

There is a thread about getting rid of NSL and I was just trying to work out how some of the ideas in that could be applied to urban limits to justify removing simply exceeding a number as an offence.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Being a local and having passed the scene minutes before the accident I thought I may be able to give some more information about this story. This is my first post but I've been reading the board for quite a while.

I had passed the Butchers shop in question on the morning of the accident and saw the queue for turkeys. It's a very wide pavement at that point, about 15 to 20 feet, and the whole pavement was full of people.

I'm guessing that like me the driver who crashed was surprised to see so many people outside a butchers at that time in a morning and glanced over to see what was happening. Maybe he glanced for sightly too long. Also the person who was crossing could have just looked like part of the crowd, or the crowd blocked his view of the road.

Church Street is quite wide at that point, but there are always cars parked all the way down on the side of the street opposite the butchers making it necessary for two cars to slow to pass safely in opposite directions. That morning there were even more cars parked, their owners presumably in the queue, and there were others waiting to cross to join the queue. I slowed to an appropriate speed and passed safely.

Although that section of Church Street is quite wide, I do not think there is a time when it would be appropriate to do more than 30mph due to the number of cars which always park there, and the associated pedestrian hazard. There are many speed limits I feel are unjustified but this isn't one of them.

If the driver was really doing over 40 I believe speed was a factor, I'm guessing the crash was a result of his distraction and the pedestrian underestimating his speed.

Have asked my sisters to provide me with a photo of the road in question. They are local - sort of.




Parked cars should be part of the COAST risk assess skills. Folk do have a very nasty habit of stepping from in-between and some occupants seem to open doors without thinking that anyone might be passing.

Yes .. 30 mph or even less might have been the safe speed on a busy high street in what I think is an old market town.


But what worries me is that the guy already had been pinged by scam in the past. This is the very type who would benefit from a DIS/Speed Awareness course. Instead the safest blippers get the invites and this type gets the fine and points.. but does not learn from this. I do favour the continental system which does warn the driver at the halfway stage and offers him/her a course in some of the Federal German states and Swiss Kantons. If no letter/offer of a remedial booster "shot in the arm" sent at this stage - then they cannot ban the person once they get to "tot-up"

The other worry is the pressure placed on him by his bosses as well.

The nature of this kind of "social/care/health" work does mean the person can be delayed by one of the patients. Naturally they will worry about the needs of the next patient.. but at Christmas time - common sense dictates that there will be more traffic around .. and perhaps more tensions on all.

I would think a phone call to the next patient and assurance that "on way and not to get upset" would be one solution if delayed for any reason.




Perhaps he glanced at the unusual queue and was distracted. Old folk .. sigh..

I do not think they underestimate speed of approaching traffic. I think more they underestimate how much slower they are at walking.

It is not a nasty comment. These old folk will feel as alert as ever and not realise that they are moving more slowly than they once did. You see.. to them .. it's natural normal and no different from the past ..

I also think that we do not always think or consider that these old folk have lost agility or may think they are walking at the same speed as they did when aged 50 years or so.. That goes for cyclists too

In their minds.. they are the same as "always" and my own parents do not feel their ages.. yet I KNOW they are slower in gait and general movement than in their prime of life. But they feel no different to as they were at age 21. They even refer to people as old as themselves or a bit older as "old folk" as they do not consider themselves as "old" I call them "growing old gracefully disgracefully"


Same as me. I do not feel that different to as I was at age 18 years I do wonder where the time has gone though. It sure flies past!

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Welcome Andy71 good to have you posting

Thank you for your comments about the road it is helpful.
Can you tell me is there any pedestrian crossing along this road or anywhere near the butchers, that could have been used ?

It does sound to me like he was both distracted, and pre-occupied, which would result in in-attention too. Certainly from how you describe it, I would be dropping my speed to probably about 5 -10 mph, if people are about to cross from between cars .... and also to move to the middle of the road, to allow for extra safety ...

Certainly the driver needed to be more aware, and under his stressful state, (such as this job entails), he now needs help to understand where he went wrong. The pedestrian it's too late for sadly, but others make take note of simple 'crossing the road safely' principals...

It the road straight, slightly curved etc ?
How many roadside furnishings are there from about 300 yds prior to this point and road markings ? (bus lanes, road access rules etc., etc.)
On a busy day like this what might have your chosen speed been ?

Our policy here as you probably already know, is to be able to drive, so that you can stop in the distance that you can see to be clear (of hazards etc). This ensures that where ever you are, and whatever circumstances you find yourself in, you should always be safe.

There are many factors which might have contributed to this accident ... too many road signs, looking for cameras, looking for a road name, (if they are un-used to the location they are going to), checking the car's instruments, all sorts of problems within the car however we have not heard of any of these, but that he was thinking about the next job - not his driving or the road ahead.
Was his car faulty ? etc

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Andy welcome.

Just a thought - it was 7.30am on 23/12 so must have been pitch dark still! How good are the street lights on this road?

If the lights are poor, would better lighting have made a difference?

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That's how Nazi Germany started. They'll be burning books next. (Brian Noble, Wigan coach - updated 20/4/06!!).

This section of Church street is straight and there are wide pavements. Heading North out of Westhoughton you have the Church on your left and a line of parked cars on your right. After the church there is a left turn (Cemetry Street) with good visibility because of the wide pavement, despite a 3 foot wall and bushes. The butchers is about 20 yards past the left turn in the middle of a terraced row. The postcode of the butchers shop is BL5 3RU if you want to find it on Multimap (or similar).

There is a pedestrian crossing about 200 yards further up the street in the middle of a slight left hand bend (Not where I would have put it) between Lord Street and Glebe Street.

Market Street is almost pedestrianized so most of the traffic going up Church Street comes from Wigan Road and comes in phases with the traffics lights at the Market Street / School Street junction.

The queue was visible to me from a distance so either the sun had already risen or the street lighting was good. I would have backed off the accelerator and covered the brake so I'm guessing I would have been doing about 15-20mph when I passed the queue. Obviously I was watching the hazard, not the speedo. I checked this weekend and with the road empty I felt comportable doing 25-30mph through that stretch, with oncoming traffic I slowed to 15-20mph.

If I get chance I will take some photos tonight and post them on here.

Hi Andy and

From your thoughful post with much insight you seem to be a steady COAST type driver COAST drivers do tend to watch and plan properly for hazards and are generally compliant - very often below the lolly and at a safe speed for the prevailing conditions. Like all drivers - they will fluctuate to a blip under and a blip above within tolerated margins within a normal free flow of traffic. This does not mean they may never fall foul of the zero tolerance scammer - but they are usually more aware of its presence 95% of the time anyway But in general - COAST values are useful tools for keeping safe and legal






the guy already has penalty points for speeding..

To some extent this sad story seems to reflect the fact that we are neither teaching good practice nor encouraging folk to learn better skills by simply fining via speed cam alone. Perhaps each first offence - no matter what the margin above the lolly should always include a refresher shot of a COAST type course - or we should do as those foreigners do and send a letter offering some remedy once 6 points are accumulated and the person is halfway towards loss of licence on tot-up. .. or go the whole hog and have a refresher for all every 5 years or so..

The other side of the equation seems to be his rushing to get to a patient and being unaware of the fact that one of these people queuing to order their Christmas dinners may just cross the road in their own "rush" to get the shopping done".

Whilst punctuality is "good manners" - the discipline of "punctuality" is part of "planning and time management" and does require taking account of possible delays at what would be a busy time of day in a "peak rush season". At the same time - people should accept a small amount of tardiness from time to time as well


The other slant is how far a better siting of the crossing you mention would have helped matters as well.

Look forward to reading more from you.

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