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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 16:30 
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One part of the EHCR ruling did not sit well with common sense. It claimed that as a motorist you took car ownership knowing full well that car ownership carried a high level of regulation and that right to silence could be overridden as you choose to own a car.

Well my wife has a car. and being disabled tax class it must be registered in her name, even if she was blind, non driver. Yet she would be forced under section 172 to testify against her husband etc.

I own lots of things that are highly regulated. A house with a gas boiler and electrics for example. Does that remove my right to silence too?

Does my job remove right to silence? Does it get removed if I own a pet tiger?

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 19:24 
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anton wrote:
One part of the EHCR ruling did not sit well with common sense. It claimed that as a motorist you took car ownership knowing full well that car ownership carried a high level of regulation and that right to silence could be overridden as you choose to own a car.

Well my wife has a car. and being disabled tax class it must be registered in her name, even if she was blind, non driver. Yet she would be forced under section 172 to testify against her husband etc.

I own lots of things that are highly regulated. A house with a gas boiler and electrics for example. Does that remove my right to silence too?

Does my job remove right to silence? Does it get removed if I own a pet tiger?


There is no law forbidding the spouse being made to testify against the other.
S172 is a written confirmation that the registered keeper was/was-not driving the vehicle at a date and time, or that it was being driven by another.
House with gas. Don't know about the silence, but that means that the gas people have access at any time.
Does your job ?
Yes. At any time you are required by law to answer the questions of a health and safety inspector. And a smoking enforcement officer now !


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:07 
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We had the 'Smoking Police' around at our offices last Monday at about 10-30 hrs. They were checking that we had the 'No Smoking' signs in place and that no-one was smoking. Since we are a recruitment agency, I asked them if they had come to try to find a 'proper' job. They didn't even smile.
After they had gone my colleague said, "Ah, good, I can have a cigarettee now!" and promptly lit up. Good for her. Anarchy rules here.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:15 
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jomukuk wrote:
There is no law forbidding the spouse being made to testify against the other.
S172 is a written confirmation that the registered keeper was/was-not driving the vehicle at a date and time, or that it was being driven by another.
House with gas. Don't know about the silence, but that means that the gas people have access at any time.
Does your job ?
Yes. At any time you are required by law to answer the questions of a health and safety inspector. And a smoking enforcement officer now !


Think you're missing the point here, by a country mile.

None of the things you list are violating a fundamental right. A health and safety inspector will not compel you to confess to crimes, which they have no evidence of you committing, or suffer a punishment.

Make no mistake, this is what the 'right to silence' affords us; protection against a corrupt system. It requires that the evidence against you be real and adequate, not simply that the authorities point the finger, and punish you anyway if you do not confess.

There is nothing that you do that should give the ability to the authorities to punish you for not confessing. How about we just let them use flaming bamboo under the fingernails to ellicit a confession?

Was the ECHR bench mainly Germans perchance?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 19:44 
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The court has decided in favour of the right to silence (sort of) in past cases: (Condron and Another v United Kingdom
(Application No 35718/97)=20)
However, since the law of the country has weight in the verdict handed down, they decided in the recent case that the right to silence should not be absolute in the speeding cases.
At the end of the day, they obviously decided that the right to silence was being used to avoid being prosecuted for something they had done.
At the end of another day, individuality rules: nobody gives a s**t about anybody else anymore.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 04:55 
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It did strike me that the judgement set a precedence that you can surrender basic rights by default.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 05:28 
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That by "chosing to own/drive a car" you give away all rights.
For many people car ownership is a necessity of free trade, daily living, access to education and employment.

_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 09:08 
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Yesterday's Times carried a substantial report on the case:

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 067417.ece

Quote:
Compulsion to identify driver does not prejudice right to fair trial

European Court of Human Rights

Published July 13, 2007

O’Halloran v United Kingdom

(Application No 15809/02)

Francis v United Kingdom

(Application No 25624/02)

Before J.-P.Costa, President, and Judges L. Wildhaber, C. Rozakis, Sir Nicolas Bratza, B. Zupancic, R. Türmen, V. Butkevych, J. Casadevall, M. Pellonpää, S. Botoucharova, S. Pavlovschi, L. Garlicki, J. Borrego Borrego, A. Gyulumyan, L. Mijovic, E. Myjer and J. Šikuta

Judgment June 29, 2007

Registered keepers of motor vehicles could lawfully be compelled to tell the police who was driving it on a particular occasion.

The Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights held, by 15 votes to two, that the nature of information sought by a notice of intended prosecution under section 172 of the 1988 Road Traffic Act 1988 did not destroy their right to remain silent and their privilege against self-incrimination.

It followed that the degree of compulsion used in the case of the first applicant, and the attempt to obtain evidence as concerned the second applicant did not, in all the circumstances, amount to a violation of the right to a fair trial as guaranteed by article 6.1 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

Gerard O’Halloran and Idris Francis were United Kingdom nationals born in 1933 and 1939 respectively. Mr O’Halloran lived in London and Mr Francis lived in Petersfield.

On April 7, 2000 Mr O’Halloran’s vehicle was caught on a speed camera driving at 69mph on the M11, where the temporary speed limit was 40mph. On June 12, 2001 Mr Francis’ car was caught on speed camera driving at 47mph, where the speed limit was 30mph.

In each case the applicant was subsequently informed that the police intended to prosecute the driver of the vehicle. He was asked for the full name and address of the driver of the vehicle on the relevant occasion or to supply other information that was in his power to give and which would lead to the driver’s identification. Each applicant was further informed that failing to provide information was a criminal offence under section 172 of the 1988 Act.

Mr O’Halloran answered his letter confirming that he was the driver at the relevant time. Mr Francis, however, wrote to the police invoking his right to silence and privilege against self-incrimination.

Before his trial before magistrates on March 27, 2001, Mr O’Halloran sought unsuccessfully to have his confession excluded as evidence, relying on sections 76 and 78 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 read in conjunction with article 6 of the Convention.

He was convicted of driving in excess of the speed limit and fined £100, ordered to pay £150 costs and had his licence endorsed with six penalty points. On October 19, 2001 his application for judicial review of the magistrates’ decision was refused.

On August 28, 2001 Mr Francis was summoned by the magistrates court for failing to comply with section 172(3) of the 1988 Act. On April 15, 2002 he was convicted and fined £750 with £250 costs and three penalty points. He maintained that the fine was substantially heavier than that which would have been imposed had he pleaded guilty to the speeding offence.

The applications were declared admissible by the Human Rights Court on October 25, 2005. On April 11, 2006 the Chamber of the Court dealing with the case relinquished jurisdiction in favour of the Grand Chamber.

In its judgment, the Grand Chamber held:

Alleged violation of article 6.1 and 6.2

Mr O’Halloran complained that he was convicted solely or mainly on account of the statement he was compelled to provide under threat of a penalty similar to the offence itself.

Mr Francis complained that being compelled to provide evidence of the offence he was suspected of committing infringed his right not to incriminate himself.

Both applicants relied on article 6.1 (right to a fair trial) and 6.2 (presumption of innocence) of the Convention.

Article 6.1

The Court did not accept the applicants’ argument that the right to remain silent and the right not to incriminate oneself were absolute rights and that to apply any form of direct compulsion to require an accused person to make incriminatory statements against her or his will of itself destroyed the very essence of that right.

It was not the case that any direct compulsion would automatically result in a violation of the Convention.

Concerning article 6.1, what constituted a fair trial could not be the subject of a single unvarying rule but had to depend on the circumstances of the particular case.

In order to determine whether the essence of the applicants’ right to remain silent and privilege against self-incrimination was infringed, the Court focused on the nature and degree of compulsion used to obtain the evidence, the existence of any relevant safeguards in the procedure, and the use to which any material so obtained was put.

The nature and degree of the compulsion used to obtain the evidence in the case of Mr O’Halloran, or to attempt to obtain the evidence in the case of Mr Francis, were set out in the notice of intended prosecution each applicant received.

They were informed that, as registered keepers of their vehicles, they were required to provide the full name and address of the driver at the time and on the occasion specified.

They were each informed that failure to provide the information was a criminal offence under section 172 of the 1988 Act. The penalty for failure to give information was a fine of up to £1,000, and disqualification from driving or an endorsement of three penalty points on their driving licence.

The Court accepted that the compulsion was of a direct nature. It also noted that anyone who chose to own or drive a car knew that they subjected themselves to a regulatory regime, imposed because the possession and use of cars was recognised to have the potential to cause grave injury.

Those who choose to keep and drive cars could be taken to have accepted certain responsibilities and obligations as part of the regulatory regime relating to motor vehicles, and in the legal framework of the United Kingdom, those responsibilities included the obligation, in the event of suspected commission of road traffic offences, to inform the authorities of the identity of the driver on that occasion.

A further aspect of the compulsion applied in the applicants’ cases was the limited nature of the inquiry which the police were authorised to undertake. Section 172(2)(a) applied only where the driver of the vehicle was alleged to have committed a relevant offence, and authorised the police to require information only as to the identity of the driver.

In cases where the coercive measures of section 172 of the 1988 Act were applied, the Court noted that by section 172(4), no offence was committed under section 172(2)(a) if the keeper of the vehicle showed that he did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have known who the driver of the vehicle was. The offence was therefore not one of strict liability, and the risk of unreliable admissions was negligible.

As to the use to which the statements were put, Mr O’Halloran’s statement that he was the driver of his car was admissible as evidence of that fact by virtue of section 12(1) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, and he was duly convicted of speeding.

At his trial, he attempted unsuccessfully to challenge the admission of the statement under sections 76 and 78 of the 1984 Act.

It remained for the prosecution to prove the offence beyond reasonable doubt in ordinary proceedings, including protection against the use of unreliable evidence and evidence obtained by oppression or other improper means, but not including a challenge to the admissibility of the statement under section 172, and the defendant could give evidence and call witnesses if he wished.

The identity of the driver was only one element in the offence of speeding, and there was no question of a conviction arising in the underlying proceedings in respect solely of the information obtained as a result of section 172(2)(a).

As Mr Francis refused to make a statement, it could not be used in the underlying proceedings, and indeed the underlying proceedings were never pursued. The question of the use of the statements in criminal proceedings did not arise, as his refusal to make a statement was not used as evidence: it constituted the offence itself.

Having regard to all the circumstances, including the special nature of the regulatory regime at issue and the limited nature of the information sought by a notice under section 172, the Court considered that the essence of the applicants’ right to remain silent and their privilege against self-incrimination had not been destroyed.

Accordingly, the Court held, with Judges Pavlovschi and Myjer dissenting, there had been no violation of article 6.1.

Article 6.2

The Court held, unanimously, that no separate issue arose under article 6.2.

Full text at http://www.echr.coe.int

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Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


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