Safe Speed Forums

civil engineer - your obviously making this up as you go along...

unless people have range finder and speed lasers pointing out the back of their cars - then none of us truely know how far and fast someone is going behind us. We can guess by experience - but thats all its going to be - if they choose to go faster running up to your tailend then its their responsibility as the car behind to ensure they dont run into the back of the car ahead - if you dont believe me then check with your insurance company as to who's to blame if you run into the back of a moving or stationary car on the road...

Yes we can wax on about how we avoided some numpty running into the back of us - however in reality the mirror is only ever going to be a small view on whats behind us - prior to signal and then move... Again if someone is coming up way beyond the speed limit and the driver ahead doesnt spot this properly - then its the following drivers responsibility to respond. I cant see any arguments to that otherwise - please enter with real points and not "Utter Lunacy" comments.

As for Johnnytheboy - I'm spoiling for a fight - thats rich - I spent several days laughing at the personal slights being passed back and forth with no action from the forum.
All I've done is respond to Mr Smith and others - and I've avoided calling Mr Smith any nasty names - however I do call into question some of the "examples" of good driving he seems to advertise so clearly in the earlier post.

As for Johnnytb comment on Undetermined speed - see if you can correctly guess the speed of someone 1/4 mile or more behind you in a glance or 3 in the rear mirror - some people can to a degree and others cant ever - this is why there is a speed limit - to help avoid these huge "diffs" you see when less responsible got well above the speed limit in their own little finger to the establishment.
To counter JTb's approach - if the car behind was on or around the speed limit then the danger you point out so clearly would magically disappear. Funny that... But no cigar from you I'd guess.

Again, this points out to the dangerous nature of "wildly" different speeds being used by all sorts of drivers today - and the avoidance some of you have in being able to condone this type of activity so easily.

On an earlier point from Mr Smith to end this post with regarding Autobahn's. On twin stretches the enforce 120 to 140kmh - and drivers there seem to on the whole abide by it much more than we do. On unrestricted and limited stretches of wider autobahn you might get a few people swooshing by in fast lane at +160 - but in my experience most of their insurance policies give out when they go above this magic number - ie 3rd party only if there accident is above 100mph. They also have a much more "disciplined" culture than us and have good manners on the road. Whilst driving there just over a month ago - I didnt encounter one agressive driver in our time over there - and Mr Smith I drove exactly the same way over there! Funny that and it didnt send me mad...

Probably because you were keeping to the right!

I'm a bit worried that you think its just MSM, hopefully you have the experience and good sense to look over your shoulder to check your blind spot before pulling out.

Your argument about judging someone else's speed is specious. Any half-blind fool can tell if someone is getting closer to them, and whether its quickly or slowly. This should be moot however, since you should be occupying the left-most available lane suitable for your current driving parameters.

You beat me to it

German drivers do indeed use safe and considerate lane discipline (yes i've also had the pleasure).
Like I've always said, MLMs needlessly cause congestion and needless slow traffic down!

On motorways it's reasonable to expect no-one to go below 70mph in the outer lane in free-flowing conditions. Therefore impeding anyone going above 70mph is stopping there from being any difference. We have 20mph differences between speed limits on NSL single and dual carriageways. Therefore you cannot reasonably use the "huge differences" argument to block anyone under 90mph, and since motorways have more lanes and safety features allowing greater differences, if anything the figure should be at least 100mph. In short, the conclusion is the same as always: don't block people, as it doesn't make things any safer.


Since lane discipline is usually so good there, they can suffer the occasional fool gladly. Oh that it were that occasional here. But it's not, because as you point out, manners are worse here.

You're tying yourself in more and more knots, aren't you? Hint: that's often the sign that you're defending an irrational position.

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Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

In germany I spent most of the time in l2 - as the german lorry drivers tend to make good use of l1 and dont dodge in and out partly due to specific "no lorry" overtaking rules/signs they have over there. I truely think that should be enforced over here too - on busy roads I've found that a lot of "holdup" situations are due to lorries playing "lets overtake"...

Imho much worse than any 70mph person in l2 ;)

Ehhh? What are you talking about, most of the Autobhan is two lanes, and some is 3 or more lanes.

I don’t think the number of lanes affects the limit, if there is one.
For example the 52 Starts at Elmpt and goes on to Dusseldorf, is two lanes and derestricted. However on the 57 which you can pick up from Duss to Koln, is at some stages 3 lanes, and was restricted to 120 kph (as you got closer to Koln.

Yes the limts where adhered to because people know there is a valid reason for it at that point.

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Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

Nice to see you understand the irony of your post.

As Ree.t says, there are a great many two lane derestricted autobahns. On the unrestricted sections - where obviously 'speeders' are not an issue:
What speed were you doing in L2?
Did you never have to pull into L1?
Did you unnecessarily impede anyone?

If you can make proper use of lanes over there then why not over here too?

indeed!


who is on about bl00dy speed lasers? If you are in L1 and you check your mirroe and see something approaching in L2....it generally makes sense not to pull out.

Mind you I don't know if the law specifically precludes it so so long as you're beneath the limit then fill your boots....just please try and make sure none of my friends or family are ever in the vicinity of you and your deluded road sense.

But it's not about numerical speed is it. You're travelling forward, traffic behind you is travelling forward, some (the bit that matters) at a faster speed, and traffic in front of you is also travelling forward, the bit that matters at a slower speed. As one approaches something that is going to require one to move out to overtake, one's fore observation should alert with 30 seconds or so to spare. In tyhat time, frequent (perhaps 4 or 5) mirror snapshots should determine how much TIME you will have in a given gap to get out and back in again having overtaken the slower traffic without causing the faster traffic to brake. You may have to back off a tad and take a run, you may have to accelerate a tad, or you may be able to slip out doing neither. Occasionally you may have to cause a compromise where traffic behind has to ease off a bit also. Lorries have to do this a lot - the classic elephant race - one doing 55 the next one doing 56. However, this should be recognised by other motorists, provided they have plenty of notice, ie, provided you don't "make" a gap, but just extend one.

Very well put Roger.

I use my mirror several times before I overtake to get a idea what the traffic is doing be hind me, before I change lanes.

Peegee it sounds like you look in your mirror, think GAP and move into it with little regard for others. You won't move into a lane where traffic is going slower, because you have to brake unnecessarily. Yet you seem willing to inflict the same on others because you are driving at the legal limit.

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Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

Dragged from page 17 - sorry

You state that patience, consideration etc. is missing from the list then quote the next item in the list which is 'Courtesy and consideration'.

You defeat your own arguments within the same post.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

From the reply, it sounds like it was a pretty sensible bet!

Go on - try it. With the IAM it will cost you £85 including training, test and membership.

Do it, and then come back here and see how much you disagree with everyone.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

Whether people do their advance DT or not - the IAM do not condone at any point in their test the use of excessive speed!!!

Not sure what planet you guys are on - but you've obviously not gone thru the test or other advancement yourselves - track days dont count ...

None have come back with any valid points yet.

Try and think about the situation - instead of how much you dislike my opinion.

Who said they did? We condemn the use of excessive speed!!!
Conversely, both the IAM and RAC condemn lane hogging (First link I found)


Why don't you explain why you think the points given are invalid instead of just stating so?
Given the points raised (and explained to you), it's possible to conclude you've run out of avenues to justify MLMing.


To sum my position up: MLMing cannot be justified (beyond reasons of selfishness); not MLMing can and has been justified (without rebuttal).




I really could go on all day.......

You are annoying other road users, because you believe you are going at the legal limit, therefore it justifies your actions. Nothing you do is wrong because you are driving at what you BELIEVE is the speed limit.

You refuse to accept your Speedo could be +/- 10% of your true speed, because Top Gear has not talked about it. I assume you have you Speedo calibrated regularly?

You have a set of rules you apply to yourself because you believe you are at the legal limit!

You don’t like trucks because they hold you up and force you to move out of L2, or slow down. You fail to see that you are doing the same to people who may for all you know be driving at (or within) the speed limit as measured by their car.

You refuse to adapt your driving style to think of others, however you expect people to change theirs to consider you.

You seem to be lacking in any form of common courtesy, and incapable of thinking of any one besides your self - this is what I do not like.

_________________
Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

I've made many, and you've neglected to comment upon them, presumably either because they are inconvenient to your stance and you cannot dispute them, or because you lack the maturity of thought to fully understand them.

peegee, if you wish to see proper MLMing at its worst, drive along the M3 at rush hour from J2, southbound, which is currently restricted to with SPECS cameras. Traffic arriving from J1 is forced into L3 by the contraflow prior to J2 with the M25 and traffic arriving from the M25 arrives in L1 and L2. Traffic in L2 will cut into L3 if they see a gap they can fit in causing wave braking.

Virtually all the way to J3 most of L1 is clear and cars in L3 can't move over because of all the MLM's who are also tailgating. The amount of accidents on the stretch from J2 to J3 is disproportionate to the amount of vehicles actually travelling along this stretch.

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Prepare to be Judged

pee gee # and hjeg1


Invest in a Sat Nav or Tom Tom

The devices do tell you well in advance to keep to left or right on motorways.

You have zero reason to hog lanes on this basis My Jag's Sat Nav does not lead me up garden paths by the way. The Tom Tom/Garmins are true villains on this. I find the Jag Manufacter 100% accurate to Jag car makers.#
I have mix of Tom Tom/Origin B2/.pogo and Road Angel products in our vintage harem/toy boys

The devices are accurate and I have piece of mind as to all legality here. I cannot ever buy such piece of mind as the vintages' speedos are ratehr "olde worlde" here

Let me put it this way.. if driving a car made in 1998 onwards .. I will trust its speedo to +- 3 moh reading.

If older . I cannot trust and rely on origin showing here I am proven right by the way and can show on video evidence if reallly pushed to do so Only I would not do on internet. I'd make sure all tabloid press readers read up this scamming artistry :ranting:

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Oh boy, you really are a lost cause, aren't you?

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

So as far as I can deduce through the fog of your syntax, you think that:

There's no need to check whether it's safe to change lane or not if you are driving at exactly the speed limit, as if anyone is approaching from behind it's their fault if they crash in to you.



You really, really shouldn't be driving with an attitude like that.