Safe Speed Forums

Listen again, for a week, at;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio2_a ... 2_vine_thu

Starts about 1hr and 9 minutes into the programme

John Geatham, the middle lane driver, on at 1hr 15mins into the programme

I'm pretty sure I've come across people before who are like that. The thing is, they don't realise that speedos overread so when they're doing an indicated 70 it's more likely to be 65 in proper measurement.

They were talking about driving again today: apparently 75% of people would fail the driving test if they had to retake it.

Their reporter failed his test for doing 60mph on a dual carriageway: they said he was going to slowly! His was reaction was somewhat understandably "well I have to stay under 70 because of all the cameras, what am I supposed to do?"
The main presenter was quite shocked as well and echoed "you think he was going too slowly by doing SIXTY?" It certainly seems a very naive belief and simplistic attitude that a learner driver must drive at the full speed limit, or be prevented from getting their licence. I wonder if this is a cause of such poor speed selection ability in newly qualified drivers?

See: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... 7774#97774

... where I propose that the problem comes from the official message itself.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

It's not quite as simple as you appear to suggest-or at least it wasn't back in the early 90's when I was learning. Back then you wouldn't have been failed for driving below the limit if there'd been a good reason for it. However, pootling along at (limit-10) in good weather and a clear lane ahead would most likely be seen as either being too timid to go any faster, or as a lack of awareness of the current limit, neither of which are desirable traits for a driver to exhibit-and especially not during a driving test...

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Chris

I don't approve of such actions either, but it is understandable. In the past, if I've been tempted to do similar, I've always made sure I have a plan B, such as, is the hard shoulder available if the MLM does suddenly decide to swerve into L1... Unfortunately, the MLM is that thick, that by taking this course of action, they don't seem to realise why you've just passed them on the inside.

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Just had a listen, and it is frankly staggering

That bloke from Taunton stating that he does it for "safety reasons". Sorry, but no. A thousand times no. Sticking blindly to the same speed for mile after mile in the same lane is not going to aid concentration, and concentration really and truthfully is a key to safe driving.

Better to use L1, judge closing distances, adjust for slip roads and exits, use all the mirrors, adjust speed accordingly, use all the lanes available and be more aware of the road in front, behind, and on both sides!

Sheesh.

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Simon

Yes. Quite.
L1, for 100 yards...lorry...L2, another few hundred yards, lorry. L3, a half a mile....back to L2....then L1...then lorry...then van...out to L2...then L3....then L1....then lorries....and all in just 5 miles....then L3 closed...so it's al lorries at less than 50 mph...then L3 open...so it's all go....except I'm in L1 and there are lorries overtaking each other (speed difference about 3 mpw (week)
Is it any surprise that people "hog" lanes ?
Oh, and I usually go m/waying at night.....10 miles....lorry....another 10 miles...lorry....funny how they all disappear at 2200z and re-appear at 0700z.....

Absolutely. I've never screamed so much at the radio/TV during a driving debate, and that's saying something considering the nonsense that's peddled in support of scameras.

Even after it was pointed out that you can move to the middle lane at junctions and then back again, the hoggers were still saying "You need to stay in the middle lane all the time because of junctions". Even after it was pointed out that you should move into the inside lane if you're going to be there longer than 30 seconds, the hoggers were still saying "You need to stay in the middle lane all the time because there are lorries and caravans in the 'slow lane'". Even after it was pointed out what the current Highway Code said, the hoggers were referring to (presumably) old versions of the HC.

Conclusion: MLMs don't learn, they don't listen, they don't want to learn or listen, they don't want to ease congestion, and they're utterly set in their ways. As well as being selfish, unobservant, unsafe, arrogant, opinionated etc. I'm sure different people do it for different reasons but the same traits will always be common among the morons. It would be interesting to see which demographics were more prone to lane-hogging; I have definitely noticed that certain age/nationality/gender combinations seem more likely to do it, but in case the PC brigade are snooping I think I'd better end this sentence here.

It's good that the Highways Agency is launching a campaign to stamp it out though; it's the first I've heard about it. Let's see "KEEP LEFT UNLESS OVERTAKING" on those matrix signs. Let's see the miscreants pulled over and "educated". Let's make middle lane moronity as unacceptable as drink driving.

Phew, I've calmed down now. That didn't do wonders for the old blood pressure....

Good to see stuff about MLMs in the mainstream media BTW; hopefully it's the shape of things to come. Far too often the facts are buried in publications and forums that the morons by definition wouldn't read. They need to be publicly shamed, since consideration for others clearly isn't enough of a reason for them to move over. They need to be exposed as aggressive, dangerous and a cause of congestion. So true that we could effectively build thousands of miles of motorway overnight if the morons could just bring themselves to become non-morons in that one small way.

_________________
Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

Although to be fair it is not a rule as was claimed.


The MLM came across as misguided and antagonistic, knowingly creating frustration in others interacting with him - just like when on the roads then.
I do believe him when he says he is aware of the traffic around him, which only serves to prove he really is being deliberately antagonistic.
I noticed a fair amount of ad hominem being thrown around too.


I was recently on the M11 going to Stanstead, I noted there was over 15 miles between junctions. So do you always need to lane hog?





For the bloke who thinks it’s better to simply stay in the middle lane for “safety reasons” – your lane changing should be as safe as houses. If you really doubt your ability then you should not even be on the motorway.

Those people show why there may well be a need for retesting drivers beyond a certain age.


Perhaps what we need is some mandatory hands-on motorway tuition...

< sigh >

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Waily got into a strop when Driving Instructor in Blackburn splashed a who did him for inconsiderate driving

That was couple of years ago when the Waily bashed s on hourly basis.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

The speed used on a driving test should always demonstrate that awareness of driving as the sped as approriate for the conditions - but legal to the lolly

As it stands - the initial test seems to be more focused on the "handling" of a car as opposed to understanding how to handle the car from a safety led/COAST point of view. Hence how come our yongsters fail the "attitude test" more so than their foreign counter-parts who are given better education as resgards attitude - which seems to be left to those who are inspired or interested enough to do an IAM course

If the MLM on the radio had even been on an a Observed ride with the IAM - I rather think he would have changed his attitude as to the "safety" of keeping to the Middle Lane

The last time I heard such garbage was some years ago when I pulled one such muppet on the M1.






You observe what is happening on the ramp and only if safe and appropriate to do so - you move into L2 to accommodate the m/way joiner - who should be using the ramp to observe the traffic already on and adjusting his speed to "blend in without causing another to either brake or change direction". Or you ease up gently to match his speed whichever is the more responsible common sense plan .

If you like - all elements of COAST working together

As for the




Not that long ago - Belgium was worried after too many drivers claimed they used "Cruise Control" when interviewed after some rather serious collisions. In some cases - they thought the car would slow automatically for the traffic whilst others admitted that it led them into some kind of lulled trance - removing their "need to concentrate"


Another reason why I think we should be moving to some kind of continuous training programme to take account of all these new "safety toys" which few understand how to use to maximise the "benefits"

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Meanwhile - German drivers are tested on the Motorway/equivalent. Probationers are restricted throughout their network to 80 mph. France restricts all their probationers likewise to their "wet motorway" limits.

They's fail for being MLMs and for fails to use all mirrors on the vehicle.

At present - Pass Plus is optional and not offered 12 months after passing the L/Test. It should be a compulsory element and be taken at any period over the probationary period.

Speaking of the probationary period - there are plans to make this three years to bring into line with France and Germany now. The driving test at aqe 18 is not so much about "safety" as "harmonisation".

But since all stats seem to show that our kids are the worst behaved in EU - perhaps our problems are more deep rooted as a society these days

Lack of courtesy and this manifests in driving standards and cycling standards alike

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Yup. It's all about making safe, unobtrusive progress in traffic and something I consciously do on every journey. AISI, it causes less stress to myself and other drivers.



Of course. Similar to travelling in the same lane, for mile after mile, at the same speed..........typical MLM behaviour. Then again, using cruise can make you more alert and aware of the surrounding road conditions. In cruise control, and when driving in L1, I find it a challenge to judge my closing speed to the vehicle in front compared to the approaching speed of a vehicle in L2. Can I pull out into L2 without causing the vehicle in L2 to brake (which means I'm looking in the mirrors behind L2 driver and into L3 to see if he has an opportunity to move into L3, if I indicate). The challenge is, can I indicate and pull out in to L2 without adjusting or cancelling cruise, and without causing inconvenience to other drivers? Sometimes yes. Sometimes no.



Or toys that make driving so easy as to make the act no more difficult than tying a shoe lace. Airbags? Great. ABS/EBD/TCS etc? Wonderful. All worthy. Auto wipers? Auto lights? Adaptive cruise? BMW's "soft" braking system? Hill start assist? Jeez. I'm human! I can judge when I need wipers and lights, and when to brake in good time, and when to ease off the brakes when coming to a standstill to avoid passenger's heads rocking back and forth.

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Simon

As mentioned above - on the local motorway to us - I tend to stick out in the fast lane - to avoid the following.

Lorries
Their Tramlines
Potholes
People emerging onto motorway with no care!
Caravans and campers.
Slower moving trailers and "illegal tows"

And best of all :)

To hack off all the speeders who think this road is theirs alone - and its their god given right to travel at 10mph or more than the speed limit.

I see no reason why I should traverse in and out of slower moving lorries in the middle lane and slow lane so I can give "Johny" and "Janey" a cleaner Swoosh by me as they pass me at 90mph - throwing up all the rubbish of the day as they go by. If I'm doing more than the lorry slow 60 mph - then I have no reason by law to have to jump out of the way of a speeding motorist.

Technically by jumping out of the way of a "speeder" - then your actually aiding and abetting a criminal!!!

It would be great if these idiots and some of the above

JUST DID THE SPEED LIMIT - for a change.....

Perhaps if you got them to pass a law so lorries couldnt overtake each other - especially on hills - then we'd all get along even faster on these roads. Most times I've been held up in the fast lane is due to lorries playing 60mph overtake with each other for a couple of miles!

Now Thats Truly Shameful Driving.

Feel better now?

_________________
Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

How antagonistic!


Which just magically appears when cars are doing over 70.

Remaining with the subject of rubbish being thrown up:

This could not be more loaded - and wrong.

Never ever noticed a tramline on motorway.




I have to be fair. I never seen pothole on any M/way. These roads are well maintained .. at least our M6 down to the Manchester 'burbs und beyond.


I will be fair. I not seen pothole on motorway/fast road. See them on urbans though :rolleyes:




They really should read Road Craft orDriving - Essential Skills.



No such thinf as slow lane.. Lorries not in middle lane that often on M6 here. To be honest - see very few doing elephant races in reality.

But rule of thumb - regardless of rights or wrongs - you assist overtake as really not worth being stroppy. You end up perhaps catalyst in any disaster. I do make biggest effort not to react. I drive as road condition's COAST make me do.




Well ... there are occasions when deliberately exceeding safer. I lucky as in Steve's playground perhaps. But I overtake convoy of caravanners. Leader of this bunch decide to accelerate just as my rear wing in line with driver door He well above legal limit for tower.

I end up having to increase speed from stable 70 mph to 80 mph to complete overtake und return to L1 with courtesy safety margin Then ease back to normal legal mode.


Elephant racing. I do so dislike this. Most do really.

Liebchen.

But I think you misunderstand. We against stupidity which undermine safety. No one saying anyone drive in silliest fashion - but more recognising of basic flaws und using normal discretion to promote safety but with a warning to alert to COAST values




.

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Oh goody, another troll.

To our latest bridge-dweller: how do you know whether the "speeder" two cars behind you is an unmarked emergency vehicle trying urgently to get to an incident to save someone's life? That's right, you don't. You don't know because you don't need to know, because it's not up to you to police others on the road.

Concentrate on your own (undoubtedly shit) driving, stop being a sanctimonious tw@t and get the hell out of the way. If you won't improve your attitude then you don't deserve a driving licence. If indeed you even hold one and you're not just spouting this nonsense to wind us up.

Now it's time for you to cycle back under your bridge. Bye. I certainly won't be rising to your provocation again.

_________________
Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

.........Ooooh I DID enjoy that Podcast, thanks Fella's.....

Being now, an "Hexagenarian"........(old fart) to you.......I too remember not only the M1 being built but the M6 Preston Bypass (now M6) which preceeded it!......

Before I start, can I just say that I noticed ONE thing. That they introduced a; Mr John Peerman of the "Highways Agency" (Not the Police) who are having a campaign against Middle Lane Hoggers!.....Is this the very first sign of increased powers for these mobile Plastic Policemen?...(watch 'em closely).

Right Mr first caller, did I hear him right? Did he say that HE knew that his speedo read incorrectly? And that when it said 70mph he was actually doing 78mph?.....

MY God! ...... Either he has a very good case against his car manufacturer and a GREAT excuse for speeding if he so wishes, or he has severely UNDER inflated tyres!

All that apart. His world of 1960 has "long since gone", as some-one said later, and the black and white image of an almost empty motorway with 3 cars speeding along it are well and truly gone also.

In those days not many cars would be able to sustain 70 mph for too long, and the braking distance at that speed with "un-assisted drum brakes" which req'd at LEAST 150lbs of foot pressure to have any real affect, inferior crossply tyres, 3 turn lock to lock un-assisted steering, and unreliable engines led of course to breakdowns and accidents.....

Hence the DE-RESTRICTION to 70 mph............


These days, cars are safer, more agile, stop quicker and are far more reliable.......

Our Motorways however have become crowded, NOT only because of car ownership, but because of Government policy. The idiot who phoned in who STILL.............47 yrs later, is even now still repeating the mantra of a lane discipline that is no longer relevent in todays world is on another planet.

His 1960's "vision" is OK up to a point, and indeed can still be found in some areas at some times. But when traffic levels are high.......things change.

HIS world.....DISAPPEARS! But HIS world does not allow for such an event! HE never does recognise the difference...."(I'm doing 68 mph in the middle lane and if they want to they can overtake me)" ........

IMO, It comes down to this: On a clear flowing Motorway there is room for everyone. On a crowded Motorway you HAVE to give FAR more thought to lane discipline and get out of the ruddy way!

And the reason that our Motorways are SO crowded IS; .......... Goverment Policy NOT to spend on roads!


Why NOT?....... They get enough friggin' money off us!