Safe Speed Forums

That's what makes me wonder .Know you're HGV ,and in the case of diving in in front of one(to get off at next junction) - I get in position in L2 ,indicate and wait for the flash to say "OK-mate - now you can pull over " - don't look for the 2 second gap, but for the professional to let me in,based on his assessment of the situation .But does (weepie)from his posts ) know what the 2 second gap is / how it's calculated or the purpose of it ??

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Easy-when moving at 56mph, look how far you travel in 2 seconds. That's the gap you need to leave. Either that or if you have no choice (if you have to get to off at a junction for example and there's been no room for a while to pull into L1) then try not to slam on the brakes to drop to 56 and give us as much room as possible without compromising yourself.
If a car pulls in ahead of me at 70+mph and brakes hard it's difficult to judge if they are going to make me do the same. All I see is the nose diving and rapid decelleration til I see the brake lights go off again.

Not all HGV drivers will flash you in. I don't sometimes-and I rarely flash cars as most don't understand what it means. It can be very misleading to other traffic too.

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Smokebelching,CO2 making,child murdering planet raping,granny mugging,politically incorrect globally warming (or is it climate changing now it's getting colder?)thug.
That's what the government want you to believe of me. If they get back in I'm emigrating.

Well, you won't catch me going near large vehicles, sometimes its not possible though as they come near me and there are several examples of people on cycles getting killed by large vehicles who OVERTOOK THEM and then turned, or obviously didn't check their mirrors at all before manouvering.

What's more, I know large vehicles are hard to see out of, which is why I despair when I see so many of them driven like rally cars; I think many HGV drivers in London need to take a leaf out of the book of the bendy bus driver, who are pretty damn good IMO.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7035041.stm

All drivers need to spend a while riding a a 2 wheeler (powered or unpowered) in traffic. A few months riding a bike changes your outlook on the roads.

Perhaps even spend a bit of time as a pedestrian (not just walking from front door to car then car to work, try walking a bit further next to roads) for the added perspective.

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

No, I'm sorry. All public transport is good and safe. All powered private transport is bad and dangerous. It's completely black and white.

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Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

Well....it sounds like you're pretty sensible on a bicycle.
I suspect the cases you speak of involve rigid HGVs rather than artics-either that or the cyclists have got themselves into a blind spot and didn't realise it.

You really do need to drive one to understand but as soon as an artic isn't in line with the trailer then the opposite side of the trailer to the direction of turn is completely blind-and after about 30 degrees bend then you can see very little of the side you're turning to either.

It's actually very difficult to drive an artic without using the mirrors properly-they 'force' you to look as you need to know where the trailer is all the time-as much as is possible with the limited visibility anyway.

Bendy buses rear axle actually follows far better than an artic trailer-it nearly follows the path of the driven axle and as such makes them very easy to drive in comparison. They've got far more visibilty in their mirrors too. Saying that, the standard of driving from the great majority of London bus drivers is abysmal. I suspect the only reason that you can single out the bendy buses as better is because they physically can't drive as agressively as the red bus drivers as they are bigger and simply won't fit.


You're talking about a couple of paticularly visible tipper companies aren't you. I have problems with them a lot in London. They don't drive, they aim. I suspect they have overstretched their targets (though that's not an excuse for the way their drivers act).

FWIW though, you have to put yourself in our shoes to understand. Going into London isn't something most of us do by choice but there's no option in most cases as Londoners have to be supplied or London grinds to a halt.
There isn't enough road in London to allow it all to be brought in by transit vans.
London roads weren't built for vehicles as big as we take in there-where there's 2 lanes in one direction the lanes are mostly too narrow for us to fit in one so we have to take both and single lanes often aren't wide enough for us to take corners without crossing the white lines.

If we don't drive 'too fast' (certainly faster than I'm comfortable with a lot of the time but it's unfortunately the lesser of 2 evils and it equates to keeping up with the flow of the traffic) then we get cars swarming round us like (scuse the language) flies round shit in the most dangerous situations imaginable. They see nothing apart from 'MUST GET INTO GAP'-never mind if there's even enough room,it's closing and in a blind spot. Cyclists often do the same. As an example I've actually had someone drive the nose of their car under my trailer because his lane was merging with mine in a queue.He was only 10 feet from the back of my 45' trailer.

It's not helped by the local councils deciding that green policy overrules common sense.Painting cycle lanes on roads that are so narrow that we can't fit down without using all of the cycle lane or driving 3 feet out into oncoming traffic really isn't good for anyone. It's safer for a cyclist to be in the middle of the road.

FWIW I wouldn't want to cycle round London either!

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Smokebelching,CO2 making,child murdering planet raping,granny mugging,politically incorrect globally warming (or is it climate changing now it's getting colder?)thug.
That's what the government want you to believe of me. If they get back in I'm emigrating.

Once again "weepej" you are talking utter rubbish as when did you last drive or "see" out of a truck, as obviously in your stupid little world of make believe this is another fantasy statement from you, nothing unusual there though!

Trucks have windows as well as cars try looking through your windows in your car and you will see them!

Due to the position of windows and the height of a truck we HGV have a far better view of the road ahead than car drivers!

The reason why cyclists are injured or killed in towns and cities is purely because as Nos4r2 says is that they travel UP THE INSIDE of trucks waiting to turn left and when the driver checks his / her N/S mirror they are invariably in the "Blind Spot" (that is right alongside or just behind the N/S/F wheel) and with all the will in world we HGV drivers CANNOT THINK FOR THE CYCLISTS who think they can ride up the inside of a HGV with impunity!

Ask Nos4r2 how many times in a day does this happen to him in Central London (as an example) where he has INDICATED TO TURN LEFT well before the junction or traffic lights (including when stationary at said lights) a cyclist decides that they can be across / round the lights / junction before the truck, that is why they are injured / killed purely because they don,t take account of the vehicle they are "passing on the inside" and they just want to be there first!

I will say again when will we see a coherent and sensible post from you as up to now you have not managed to post one response or item from all the posts I have seen of yours!

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"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

About two months ago; they had some HGVs on Horseguards parade that they were inviting cyclists to sit in to see how the world is seen from the cab of one of these.

nos4r2 himself explained the blind spots.

There are records of HGV drivers going round cyclists and crushing them, it does happen, and there are records of them just not checking their mirrors properly, the most recent one I can recall the driver said in court he was "looking at some papers" when he smeared a girl over the railings as he turned left.



Again, many HGVs are driven well, but some are patently not.

I see a LOT of VERY heavy vehicles driven like rally cars, I spend TWO HOURS A DAY in London traffic on a push bike.

nos4r2 is right, most of the badly (probably hurridly) driven ones are skip trucks, cement trucks etc... but I see articulated lorrys driven hurridly as well.




Thanks!

Oh, and I always try to follow the advise of making sure I can see the driver in their mirrors. Its plain that people sometimes neglect to look in their mirrors before turning or pulling in if you do this.

I can sometimes even say to people (in any type of vehicle) who say "I didn't see you" that they didn't look, and know they didn't look because I was watching their eyes.

And I'd say pretty much once a week a vehicle driver pulls around me on my cycle (so they must know I'm there) and then turns left on me, or pulls in.

That's actually better than I'd expect-I would have thought that happens daily if you're in London. The standard of driving there is appalling.

Out of interest, what HGVs did they have? Rigid or articulated and if they were articulated were they straight or bent?

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Smokebelching,CO2 making,child murdering planet raping,granny mugging,politically incorrect globally warming (or is it climate changing now it's getting colder?)thug.
That's what the government want you to believe of me. If they get back in I'm emigrating.

One articlulated at least, parked so it was bent (as if it was turning), I can't remember if the other was articulated or rigid.

The news story says there were four lorries and a trailer, but I only saw two, perhaps the others were out for a drive.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/ ... article.do

I'd say most drivers are very conscientious, but there are some proper idiots out there (generally those that appear to be in a hurry, which is funny because we all go the same speed round here), and of course there are common mistakes/errors most drivers make, the classic is nose out of the junction, which is very inconsiderate.

Complex issue, because I'm sure that one day a driver could be well chilled out, be being careful and considerate, but the next day be in a hurry and be very prone to making mistakes, or simply be incredibly agressive.

I'm sure the same could be said about peds and cyclists, but the results of something going wrong can be very different depending on your chosen mode of transport, and people on vehicles should know and do better (and try harder at being better the bigger the vehicle they drive IMO).

I've seen drivers ROAR down a road to get round somebody they think is slowing them down, diving in and out, braking hard, jumping red lights. I generally smile as I ride up to them at the next junction or so.

That's quite forward thinking of them!

The trouble with driving an HGV or riding a bicycle (sensibly) through London seems to be pretty much equal but the dangers are different. You've got abusive morons trying to get past you and they don't care whether or not they kill you.
We have abusive morons trying to get past us and they don't care whether or not it kills them. It's very stressful knowing that you're in an almost godlike position at times-the life or death of the ones around you depends on your correctly interpreting their actions before they can do something terminally stupid.

I have to admit there's many times I see cyclists in London and I'm impressed by their riding. Most of these are keeping up with traffic to some degree and are quite obviously aware of what's going on around them.
Unfortunately (and I'm sure you'll agree) in practice everyone gets tarred by the same brush and there are a lot of cyclists in London who are either tired of life or terminally stupid. The equivalent of the yellow cabbed Irish named tippers you see around the Polish War memorial roundabout at a guess-who are the ones whos brush we get tarred with....

Hell, in short the biggest problem with London is cars!

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Smokebelching,CO2 making,child murdering planet raping,granny mugging,politically incorrect globally warming (or is it climate changing now it's getting colder?)thug.
That's what the government want you to believe of me. If they get back in I'm emigrating.

I'm not sure on that one. Most of the stuff I see appears to be ignorance compounded by arrogance and an unfailing belief in their own immortality. The ones in a hurry are quite funny from where we're sat-they rarely get anywhere anyway. We take the room we do because we need it-and trying to push through doesn't normally work because there simply isn't the room.The problems begin when they won't accept there isn't room and just keep going-often straight at oncoming traffic. Couldn't agree more.That's one of the reasons that we are as highly trained as we are before we can go on the road. that's why it takes a car driver around 2 weeks of intensive training just to make the minimum standard to pass an HGV test.Unfortunately there's always some who think they can revert rather than progress once they take the test. We can't be 100% responsible for everyone around us. Who was it said 'the stupid will always be looking for a new and interesting way to kill themselves'?
It's all about awareness-and that cuts both ways.

They make me laugh. They usually sit on my trailer lights flashing their lights and beeping and swearing (shame I can't lip read )
The worst places I find for these people are the "1lane->2lane at trafficlights->1 lane immediately after lights" on the South Circular. I've lost count of the number of people who try and get through gaps that aren't there too late and end up slamming on their brakes,coming to a halt and waiting for me to clear the lights.

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Smokebelching,CO2 making,child murdering planet raping,granny mugging,politically incorrect globally warming (or is it climate changing now it's getting colder?)thug.
That's what the government want you to believe of me. If they get back in I'm emigrating.

I have to say, I'm genuinely impressed - we have a cyclist and a HGV driver AGREEING with each other!

Keep it up, boys!

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Happens a lot, on the road as well, a well driven HGV, or bus, or car will more often than not get a thumbs up from me when I'm on my bike, a flash of the hazards when I'm in my car (strictly bad, but it seems to be the only way of communicating approval to somebody behind you, apart from maybe a hand shown to the rear view mirror).

I do see some that are practically murderous though, and even some "I'm in a hurry get out of my way" types with obvious intent, I wouldn't agree with them.

I've had words with obviously over agressive drivers before, not angry words, but words like "if you keep driving like that you're going to kill somebody, would you want to live with that", most calm down straight away (of course some are abusive back with the obvious attitude that the KSI'd party would deserve it for getting in their way).

Its this attitude that strikes me most from some people who pilot machines.

"Well they shouldn't be there" is often said up front when behaviour that could cause death is challenged (in this case a lady on a motorway doing 20mph).

Sure, maybe they shouldn't. That's not going to mean you don't have terrible nightmares for the rest of your life if you strike them and kill or seriously injure them.

Well, I would say that this is an effect of feeling "safe" in a car, but then I do see some people on cycles with the same attitude, young and old, but I do think cyclists are more in touch with their vunerability, indeed they are infinately more vunerable than somebody in a car.

For once "weepej" I have got to agree with some of the comments you made especially about inconsiderate drivers who are in such a hurry to get somewhere and end up going nowhere as it is plain and simple the old adage "more haste less speed" especially round London at any time from 6am onwards to late evening is a total nightmare but as I said when cyclists have the mentality of "I am going to the front come what may" there is nothing you can do as Nos4r2 says there are those that will try and force their way in whatever, in the same way as the driver turning left while reading a letter / directions should DEFINITELY have been charged with "Causing death by Dangerous Driving" and have his HGV licence taken away for good!

There is no excuse for not stopping to ask / look for directions or a road to turn in to but toread a map when turning is definitely a no-no as it is patently obvious in this situation that his mind was definitely on other things and a poor innocent cyclist paid the ultimate price through what appears to be no fault of their own other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

He was fined £300 + £100 costs and allowed to keep his license.

Two links for balance: -

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 935510.ece

http://www.movingtargetzine.com/article ... -fined-300