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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 22:04 
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I heard this on the news today.

It seems Finland has made it illegal to smoke in your family car if your child is a passenger ..:bunker:


|Errr..the ex-smoker was on the telly .. GMTV or BBC breakfast .. cannot recall which I watched over my Weetabix now.. :roll: .. but anyways he was advocating a ban on smoking in your car and even encouraging child to contact the police about Mum and Dad's fag smoking in their presence whilst the non-smoker from "Forest" actually presented the common sense view as to "how the hell are we supposed to resource/police this when we have more urgent matters to attend to?" (And yes.. he did accuse the state of becoming "Bully State" if they go down this line .. and I am inclined to agree with him as we have more dangerous folk to tackle than the parent reduced to "smokking behind the bike shed or even the garden shed|" :popcorn:

Now I do not smoke.. nor advocate smoking .. but whilst I enjoy non-smoking areas when at leisure.. I do not agree with interfering in legally led private lives and home lifestyles.

I do not see how we could possibly police this in any case. .. and I think - very cynically - more a sop to nanny rather than practical here. And do bear in mind that plenty of cops .. errr.. enjoy a cigarette I am one of the few who never did.. but that does not mean I would wage a war on those who do all the same.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 09:21 
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OTOH. If I asked you if you thought that it was reasonable that adults were allowed to force children to sit in a small chamber filled with a noxious carcinogenic gas I suspect that your answer would be in the negative.

No one should smoke in a place where it causes grief to other people, even children.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:04 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
No one should smoke in a place where it causes grief to other people, even children.

Yes, but there does not need to be a law about it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 16:24 
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malcolmw wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
No one should smoke in a place where it causes grief to other people, even children.

Yes, but there does not need to be a law about it.


If people cannot be persuaded from behaving in a manner that is detrimental to other peoples health and well being then, yes, there does need to be a law about it. That is why we have laws prohibiting GBH and murder.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 18:59 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
noxious carcinogenic gas


Cite sources please.

To the best of my knowledge there has been no conclusively proven link between passive smoking and increased risks of cancer, other than anecdotally.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 19:12 
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There are far too many unnecessary laws interfering in areas that are inappropriate for legislation. Just because you happen to think something is unhealthy or wrong does not mean that it should be banned.

You may be wrong. One month's health fad is often later proved to be folly.

The hyperbole of using murder as an example of something "detrimental to other people's health" adds nothing to your argument.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 20:52 
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Now where else have we heard the same sort of arguement -"THINK OF THE CHILDREN" - sort of says it all about this sort of mentality .If adults can't be sensible enough to respect other people's rights ,then no amount of laws ( even if those laws stood a slim chance of being upheld ) would ever persuade them to obey .Today's society reminds me of a certain mobile ad "there's an app for XXX" -as in someone thinks that something is wrong ,so they immediatly start a hue and cty to get a law banning that .
[rant mode] -perhaps we need a law banning people making knee jerk laws[/rant mode]

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 23:41 
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I would say that anyone smoking a cigarette isn't in complete control of their vehicle so they should not smoke and drive. If you can't operate a phone then you can't mess around lighting a cigarette and dropping the ash into the ash tray or out of the window or throwing the fag butt into the road like a lot of smokers I see. Having a lighted anything in a car is just dumb.

There might not be a link between passive smoking and cancer but hasn't one been found between passive smoking and diabetes? Even if passive smoking doesn't cause cancer it is a stinking foul smell to a non smoker so I hope you smokers don't mind if non smokers travel in your car farting continually until your eyes water. :twisted:

I am not a smoker and do not understand why anyone of sound mind would light dried leaves a few inches from their face!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 23:58 
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teabelly wrote:
I would say that anyone smoking a cigarette isn't in complete control of their vehicle so they should not smoke


oops- TB- GET HEAD DOWN to survive salvos from smokers .

As an ex smoker , I'd suggest that the last thing you need is someone denied a ciggy near you ,in a car - if you feel that them smoking puts them out of control - then the the next worst thing is someone who can't light up on the road ,having to wait for a chance to light up - an accident waiting to happen .Those having a ciggy ar the wheel are relaxed , andin control .

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 00:15 
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botach wrote:

oops- TB- GET HEAD DOWN to survive salvos from smokers .

As an ex smoker , I'd suggest that the last thing you need is someone denied a ciggy near you ,in a car - if you feel that them smoking puts them out of control - then the the next worst thing is someone who can't light up on the road ,having to wait for a chance to light up - an accident waiting to happen .Those having a ciggy ar the wheel are relaxed , andin control .


Smokers shouldn't be allowed to drive at all if their withdrawal symptoms make it so they can't drive safely without smoking and smoking affects their ability to control a vehicle without the distraction of burning embers. Nicotine is a stimulant not a relaxant isn't it?? Smokers only feel relaxed as they have a hit of their drug and it is the lack of nicotine that manifests as agitation and the bad temper until they get some more. It's addiction not freedom when it comes down to it.

Simple answer is nicotine gum. Sorts out the cravings, doesn't pollute the car with smoke or need a spare hand :)

Has anyone actually studied the effect of nicotine (or lack of) on driving?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 00:59 
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teabelly wrote:

Simple answer is nicotine gum. Sorts out the cravings, doesn't pollute the car with smoke or need a spare hand :)

Has anyone actually studied the effect of nicotine (or lack of) on driving?


TB
- SUGGEST YOU GET REAL -Have you ever smoked - I'd say not ,and then you're not then the best person to advise on driver related smoking problems . Me - I smoked about 40 a day , so have REAL knowledge of driving and giving up problems . BUT - all smokers have several chances of stoping - but only once do all things come together to give them the chance to give up ,AND keep it up . I've been stopped for afew years, but lke an alcoholic - I'm only as good as my my last no smoking days .

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 01:57 
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Linking smoking while driving, to being an alcoholic may not be a bad thing.

Personally, I believe that some drivers are capable of smoking/eating/drinking/phoning etc whilst driving, without causing accidents or effecting their driving ability ....BUT at the same time, i believe, that if phone usage/eating /drinking etc should be banned whilst driving, then so should smoking.

As Teabelly suggests, lighting/smoking a cigarrette at the wheel is just as dangerous/distracting as eating/drinking/phoning at the wheel.

i am of the belief that , the only reason that smoking while driving has not been banned , is because so many politicians smoke.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 09:00 
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RobinXe wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
noxious carcinogenic gas

Cite sources please.

http://old.ash.org.uk//html/passive/html/passive.html quotes many studies that support the claim.
http://www.bupa.co.uk/health_information/html/health_news/270503smoke.html reviews the one major (tobacco industry sponsored) confounding study.

Enough serious evidence to persuade me to invoke the precautionary principal. But, as a car driver, I would never complain about side smoke. I once heard a non-driving smoker reply to a complaint from a non smoker with - "I will stop polluting your air with my tobacco smoke if you will stop polluting my air with emission from your motor car"

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:26 
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But you might as well ban smoking and sale of tobacco - which can lead to other criminal matters.. :roll:



More to the point - how can we police this .. short of placing cameras in cars/homes ? Not saying I condone smoking or blowing smoke in the face of others but rather that legislation to deter has to be better thought through perhaps?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:54 
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Errr.... I do worry a bit over legislation.

I do advise all my patients to stop smoking as this will affect treatment prescribed. :roll: I cannot refuse treatment nor can I force a patient to do as I advise :bunker:

I think the issue is ..
how do you enforce such a ban? :scratchchin:
One way (as saidalready) would be to ban all sales of tobacco and given the hoo-hah over other addictive and perhaps more immediately dangerous substances :bunker: - I think we would have even more of a problem :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 13:13 
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botach wrote:

TB
- SUGGEST YOU GET REAL -Have you ever smoked - I'd say not ,and then you're not then the best person to advise on driver related smoking problems . Me - I smoked about 40 a day , so have REAL knowledge of driving and giving up problems . BUT - all smokers have several chances of stoping - but only once do all things come together to give them the chance to give up ,AND keep it up . I've been stopped for afew years, but lke an alcoholic - I'm only as good as my my last no smoking days .


Nicotine is one if the most addictive substance in the entire world. Best kept away from. The chemical dependency goes within a few days. What is left is your psychological addiction and you have to find out why you smoke and what it offers you and find alternative non chemical ways of dealing with life. Then you won't need to smoke and it will no longer have the hold over you.

Addicts with an addiction that affects their ability to drive should not be driving or should find alternatives that deal with their addictive symptoms. Drugs are drugs. Whether they're over the counter medication that cause tiredness, nicotine, alcohol, caffiene. They all cause changes in behaviour so their use while driving should always be studied and maybe legislated against if they're sufficiently detrimental.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 13:34 
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I agree with you teabelly .. but the problem in banning smoking is how to police .. assuming we can :roll: and what we really need to address is how to educate our young that it's "serious un-cool" to take any sort of drug

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A Smiley Per post
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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 13:52 
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Just before I serve up lunch .. which I cook as good meal before we set off... on epic in a coach to Manchester :yikes: (we hired one as way too many of us spending a jolly weekend or rather Saturday afternoon - Sunday together as big family get-together :lol:)

Last year .. Swiss had referendum over legalising heroin/cannabis which pass into legislation after a yes vote. Folk voted "yes" because dealing/selling would still be illegal but that registered addicts - providing they sought help und were controlled by prescription .. which would also involve a gradual wean-off/clean up/rehab.. which seemed fine to majority of Swiss folk. :popcorn: but they have found this take up lot of admin :roll:

Smoking ist like here .. banned in public places. One can smoke in private which include car which ist not used for work purpose und thus with public passengers like here.

We agree that nothing should distract the driver .. but our problem lie in the education in the first place und we also have to be careful of introducing laws which can infringe right to privacy within one's castle or "its realm's carriages" .. I play with words again .. but I think you know what I try to say :wink:

We also have to be wary of a law which create more problem than it perhaps solve too. :scratchchin: und this does not mean we condone smoking .but that we are mindful of what such a ban can mean und sledgehammer approach have track records of not working at all. :bunker: I post to make for further debate .. sensible debate I hope? :bunker:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 16:24 
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Passive smoking is one of those things that really get people fired up, on both sides of the fence, so here's my 2p worth:

While it's undeniable that tobacco smoke (subjectively) smells unpleasant (although it can be said to mask some even more unpleasant odours), and indeed irritates a lot of people, I remain deeply sceptical of any purported health effects. Take a look here, and do a search for "passive smoking". Also, see what people like Dr James LeFanu have to say on the subject.
From my personal point of view, there are several unanswered questions:
1) What's the difference between tobacco smoke and other smoke (eg smoke from wood fires, barbecues, cooking etc, not to mention diesel fumes) What is it in tobacco smoke that makes it particularly dangerous?
2) Humans have evolved over tens or hundreds of thousands of years and, for all but the last few decades, have lived, worked and socialised in smoke-filled caves and rooms. Why should the merest whiff of tobacco smoke all of a sudden become so deadly? It's even been suggested that we, having breathed in smoke throughout our evolution, actually require doses of it for our well-being, just as, as is now being discovered, being 'too clean' is bad for our health.

It's also undeniable that nicotine has some effect on the brain, but so again do a huge number of other things. Any drug which has an effect on the brain only has that effect because it either mimics the effect of natural neurotransmitters, hormones and peptides, or triggers their release. If brain cells have no built-in receptors for a particular substance then that substance cannot have any effect. Cocaine and amphetamines, as well as nicotine to a much smaller extent, work by increasing dopamine levels in the brain. But falling in love has the same (and arguably more powerful) effect, as do, to a lesser extent, pleasurable activities such as laughter and listening to music. If we're to ban smoking while driving because of it's neurological effect, we should then also ban things like listening to music or comedy. And, because of it's very much larger effect, we should also unequivocally ban people from driving for at least two to four years after starting a new relationship. (or, indeed, ending one)

I'm also highly sceptical of the view that smoking while driving is dangerous because of the distracting effect. The act of lighting a fag is normally automatic, requiring no thought, and has little or no distracting effect. Also, while it's possible for a driver to, for example, drop a cigarette, I would suggest that such incidences are sufficiently rare as to be completely insignificant in the scheme of things.
Conversely, I can only guess at the effect of thousands of drivers being denied a fag.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 00:33 
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Question to all those posing on here - HOW MANY OF THE "EXPERTS "actually advising against smoking whilst driving , have actually smoked .
To me -I see many of the anti drive and smoke peeps like the anti speed brigade - who DON'T know what it's all about .

SO COME CLEAN -how many of you have experience of smoking and driving - I can tell you from experience that with pratt in front -a ciggie does wonders for road rage . At night ,on a long haul ,when tired - it wakens you up .I've been there -got the tea shirt - and have quit - if you've never smoked - can you honestly pass judgement .

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