Safe Speed Forums

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default ... ryId=17642

As reported on pistonheads. 20mph zone in lewisham. *sigh*

their plan is working, i'm losing the will to even bother getting annoyed about it now let alone want to waste my time trying to do anything.

they don't listen and they evidently don't care about what i) people want or ii) what is geniunely beneficial to road safety.

This is Livingstoned land - what do we expect?

Of course it'll probably cause more pollution (and let's not forget that includes CO2 ) because cars are far less efficient at 20, and then every car will be charged £25 to drive through there because they're all "polluting so much".

And then 10mph zones will be set up in the high streets. And so on and so forth...

Utter myth.

In benchmarks maybe, a car travelling along straight road at 20 might emit more than the same car travelling at 30.

Not in the real world though.

Build in stops and starts (accelerating to 30 emits more than accelerating to 20, and people will accelerate harder to get to 30 than they do to 20) and the situation is totally reversed.

You say that like it is something rarely used by the people on the side you support. Myths and complete and utter lies are far too often used to push forward anti car measures by pro-speed cameras groups.

You've also then gone onto prove your own statement wrong by providing example of where 20 is less efficient than 30... therefore not "utter myth" after all

If 20 mph limits were imposed on long stretches of urban main roads then this effect would certainly come into play. My car will cruise comfortably at 30 in fourth gear. At a strict 20 it has to be kept in second, with higher revs and higher emissions.

Personally, while I don't agree with it and regard it as utterly pointless, I'm not hugely bothered about 20 limits on small residential streets.

But once you start applying 20 limits to major through routes it is an entirely different ballgame...

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Might I question the assumption that drivers will always go 30 in a 30, and not a speed around 20 if they know they're gonna have to slow down or stop?

I'm very conservative with the fuel I pay for given I'm still a student.

That's maybe a BIT strong / over simplified! Different cars will behave differently under the same conditions (or sometimes the same under different ones)!

Most diesels are better at urban speeds because they are inherently more efficient at part throttle than petrol engines. I wouldn't be surprised if some small diesels emitted less CO2 in 20MPH zones than some big petrol engines (or indeed, petrol engines of the same size). But in real life it's almost certainly more complex than that - maybe a 20MPH limit would smooth out traffic flow - and maybe it wouldn't! I think that if it's emissions you want to tackle, reducing / eliminating the stop-start will have a MUCH greater effect than the actual maximum speed achieved (again within reason). It will take MUCH more energy to repeatedly accelerate a vehicle from rest to 20 than to drive it at a constant 30!

Driving at 20 means an uncomfortable engine speed in first, and higher than I like in second. So I do 15 in second, or slower. I get passed rather often, usually by people with children in the back, at much higher speeds.
Driving as I do means I get to notice quite a lot. Most cars going fast in 20 are driven by women. The children are also hardly ever "belted-up". Probably they are the "local shop run" or "school run"

In any case, who cares ?
All these rather grandiose "traffic management" schemes work as well as trying to drink from a colander. Most drivers in the "urban war theatre" (housing estates) are driving at lower speeds than the limit anyway. Most of the 20 limits are ignored by the people LIVING in those areas.

As for the vehicle efficiency being lower at 20 than at higher speeds....that depends on the engine temperature when the vehicle enters the restricted zone....if it starts IN that zone it is hardly going to get hot fast. Most diesels tend to produce "bursts" of pollution when accelerating....
All very useful no doubt.......but who cares ?
All negated by one diesel bus engaged in the urban stop-start that they are so very inefficient at.

_________________
The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Hi all,

I am new to this forum so am hoping I am posting in the correct area?

With regards to the proposed blanket 20mph limit in London Borough of Lewisham, is there an official Safe Speed position on this?

From what I understand, the local authority is trialing this measure with a view to discouraging vehicle use in the borough for environmental and congestion reasons. Whilst road safety hasn't specifically mentioned as an aim of this scheme, the prospect of drivers paying more attention to the speedo rather than the road is a frightening prospect.

Your thoughts on this will be very much appreciated.

Malcolm

Agreed, on the small residential streets it doesn't matter what the limit is, you're not going to get above 20/25 even if you hammered it (unless in a powerful car) particularly in London as Speed Humps everywhere. But turning main roads into 20mph is a joke, and despite far too many people taking the opinion "hah, 20mph in London - you'd be lucky to do 15" - this is not a peak hours only limit.... it'll apply at 3am, when no one else is about but you still gotta do 20 to avoid camera fines


Their aims are skewed. To reduce congestion you don't lower speed limits, you provide better alternatives. It's such negative action. Lowering limits might make a very very small number of people who really didn't need to use the car before, but mostly they are just introducing laws which turn more people into "criminals"

Their aims are not skewed.
Yours is a common misconception, that "they" are trying to reduce accidents by lowering speeds and reduce pollution by the same method.
"they" are trying to reduce car use by making it difficult to get anywhere in a car. "they" are trying to make it difficult to maintain the car [administratively] to ensure it is there to use when needed.
New residential areas are being built where cars are parked separate from the housing. ie: carparks at the edges of the residential areas. We all know how safe those are going to be. It will not be long before the increasing amount of low-lives cotton-on to that....people walking from carpark to house with goods and cash...and the car there for easy pickings.
You need to go on the course that translates civil-service speak to plain English.

Better still, just accept that if it is said by a person employed by the GOV, in any way, all that is said will be lies, lies and more lies.
Neu-Labour, Old liars.

At least Red Ken is a BIT honest "if I get in power again I'd do away with the lot of them" (cars).
But even then, it will only be for US, and not for THEM.

_________________
The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

We are just about to have the 20mph limit and speed humps removed here (Covingham, Swindon).

The consultants, Halcrow in conjunction with Swindon Council (Tory), have developed a new scheme on the basis of the shared spaced concepts.

The roads will be narrowed out by paint outs, and strategic kerb based narrowings next to the two schools zones, incuding VAS signs. They are also improving the mini roundabouts by planing them back to street level, and modifying the junctions to suit.

The road center line markings are also to be removed, and the speed limit will revert to 30mph

I am very excited about this, as I have recently had to spend £300 on remedial suspension work on my Bavarian Money Waster, and I do no more than 15mph in the 20 zone.

I think this is politically a very hot potato, and will be watched very closely.

We have good accident data from before the traffic calming scheme was installed, and during the 4 years since the original scheme was installed. If the accident rate does not increase which I sincerely hope is the case, then we would have a major success on our hands here!

Works start on the 1st of March apparently.

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"Are you sh**ing me?"
"John Spartan, you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute."

Exactly. Residentials fine.

Two road Lakeland hamlet/village ..fine.

But whole different ballgame on normal A roads.


Wildy has stats from Germany somewhere which she whisked in front of me to read. Bulk of their incidents occur in the towns.. on the 20 mph roads.

There are other matters as well. Whilst the R & D teams at the motor manufacturers are looking at designs which will not kill should someone happen to walk in front of the car - and looking at further improvements to braking systems and some gadget which will sense the impending hazard and kick into brake if the driver fails to .. (I fear more troubles ahead on that one .. ) - they are also looking to make cars noisier (per BBC and car mag reports about 5 months ago.. )

The logic on this is that "we are lulled into a sense of complacent security because the car is quiet and smooth.. and if we can hear the engine ..

The logic appears to be that we "feel endangered and will drive more slowly"




Yep.. that'll work.






Kids'll love this little addition to monster exhaust pipes to add a little more sassy throatiness.

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We are concerned with the safety issues and as we read the motor mags and know a bit more about how a combustion engine works than our Ken apparently does.. we doubt very much whether any reduction in CO2 would occur. In fact given the black cabs (exempt) spew out far more CO2 . A Vx Zafira PEOPLE CARRIER and not a 4x4 will be charged £25 and per this week's Autocar - there are plans to charge £4 on the small cars should they become "too popular"


As for the other expensive cars.. those who can afford to run them will just cough up the cash anyway. It will not prevent their use in real terms.

Families will be hardest hit.. and no doubt they will just budget to afford this and child will have one designer outfit less

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Depends if the zone has speed bumps... my van has 5 speed tiptronic, normally in a urban 30 zone I'm feathering the throttle in D at about 1300 RPM, in a speed up/slow down/speed up speed bump littered 20 zone I select 2nd and do 2000+ RPM.

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

Yup, and I would hope that when they put a 20 zone in around me they also take out the speed humps (and replace them with average speed cameras).

It'll be bliss to drive up and down the residential roads in my area then, 10-20 mph all the way, no speed humps.

So . if speed humps - this not a main road .. but a cluster of residential side streets.

SO .. this mean the only people speeding around are the residents themselves

But hark.. I thought the whole point of the humps was to slow thing down.. und I cannot see how watching speedo between SPECS which would have to be more or less on top of each other anyway will help matters .. apart from look ugly und unsightly on residential road.

But I read in press from big 'burb of Manchester area that a clusterof residential streets (which not a rat run as quicky googly on map show it not connect two main road .. but link the roads of the housing estate.. has 20 mph limit imposed to






It look like you stuck with the 'ump, Liebchen But given these fall to pot holes und never get fixed .. perhaps we can hire a JCB digger sometime

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Er, no.



You wouldn't have to watch your speedo, quick glances at it are enough, but also, if you're not trying to tank it and go as fast as you can its very easy to stay under 20mph.



Nope, TFL (transport for London) are speculating on the installation of cameras and the removal of humps.

Saying that, I wouldn't be too bothered iof they introduced a 20 limit and didn't remove the humps, just a bit disappointed.


The majority of respondents thought that engineering measures had
been most successful in reducing casualties, followed by speed control
through cameras and education initiatives. Looking forward there was
strong support (more than 70% of the respondents) for expanding
activity on engineering measures, 20 mph zones, advertising
campaigns, pedestrian facilities, training and work within schools. Over
half the respondents said that there should be more safety cameras

Speed humps were the only existing road safety measure that
significant numbers of respondents said should be reduced. Seventeen
percent of correspondents thought that there should be more speed
humps, 44% thought there should be no change and 37% thought that
there should be fewer speed humps.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/ ... sponse.pdf

Aber doch! The bulk of the drivers would be those who live in these side streets.


If it being used as rat run..then some engineering to prevent und to improve the road they rat running from should be carried out In ideal worlde but not in that inhabited by muppet in town hall planning department





But I do "feel" the speed und generally do not "testing" the car on burby roads. In fact .. everyone overtake me in the villages as I am perhaps only one apart from Ted obeying the 20 mph speed limit there. We get overtaken by lycra clad cyclists I think the ultimate horror was the shame of it.. being overtaken by some bloke on a tricycle once in Ambleside My heart was in my mouth as there was on-coming car und he on wrong side of road at the time




I would not like a big ugly camera on the road where I live. I think I prefer humps after all to these carbuncles on the aesthetic eye.





Ja... und the MEN as I recall back in late 2003 had piece on set up of Manchester pratnership. This paper not anti-scamera - but even they were taken aback when they discover that the people polled for opinion were on a set list und always polled for opinion.. und based on on-line und phone polls which were whopping 90% doubtful over scam contribution to road safety.. they find 75% on this poll bending over backward in waxing lyrical praise of scams. They then discover that this poll was prescribed beforehand. They publish mid-December 2003. It still somewhere on their archives

So I have my doubts as to who they got to "respond positively" based on this und also based on rather conflicting road safety stats from Europe .. which claim 8% increase in KSI overall .. und then a 19% drop in three Kantons with 20% drop in Italy which has fairly damning stats on the motorway which run from Dolomiti to the heel/toe areas. .. which suggest to me that something not being recorded correctly or several recorded zero accident.. which would not be truthful either.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Sorry, residents to me meant people that live on my street.

Its not a major rat run, but it is used to get from one high street to the other (I live in between two different high streets).

As usual though I suspect the people that "speed" through it (i.e. drive way too fast) are not residents of the immediate area, but passers through. People do seem to have an affinity for not going too fast in their immediate area, but don't seem to mind chalking through somebody elses!

This is a total guess though, and yes, some residents probably drive too fast, and some much too fast, and then some much to fast in reverse (when they want to exit at the top of the street and are facing the wrong way).




Neither would I, but I don't think they would have to be big and ugly. We've got a gatso on the local high street and I agree it does look a bit out of place.

Small camera on a pole at the top of the street, far far preferable to the speed humps I've got now on so many fronts.