Safe Speed Forums

As a follow up to thread I posted earlier and cannot find

. This legislation becomes UK Law in September 2006.

From September – per an EU directive children as old as 12 years will have to be in car or booster seats.

Road safety experts have focussed for a long time on how to improve the safety of back seat passengers. Whether we like it or not anything not secured in the back flies forward if there is an impact.

Basic physics really.

Personally do not have anything on rear shelf and I like things to be tidy anyway.

It seems that the researchers have come to the conclusion that more 6- 11 year olds die as car passengers as they are too slight for the seatbelts and too short to reach head restraints .. so they all have use a car seat or booster seat.

From September all children travelling in a car will have to be in a car seat that complies with Euro safety standard 44/04.

All children under three years must travel in a car seat whether in car or lorry. (Er – bus… train .. coach? )

If aged three or more – then they have to use a car seat or booster deemed appropriated to their height. (Cut off is 150 cm tall.)

So with a large family – have a bit of a problem.

Where the hell do I put all these car seats and boosters?

Per the first version in the papers – I read it to mean the youngest two had to use them – but the third child in the back would be legal with normal seat belt owing the fact that I’d be a heck of a lot less safe if I tried to cram three of these seats in the back.


There would be the usual arguments between our rogues aged 7 and 5 years

Also Lukas (tall for his age) considers himself to be a grown up and given the rivalry and general competitiveness between my youngest sons – there will be howls of protest from Andrew if he has to use the seat and be “treated differently than Lukas”

Kids!


I am not altogether sure that these seats will add that much to safety. They are lethal if fitted incorrectly - 80% out there do not secure them properly per various surveys including GMTV on a annual campaign.

Having said that – I do use such seats for Rachael and she uses a Mamas and Papas Pro-Tour which is supposed to see her through to age 11 per the blurb – and it was the adjustable head rest which clinched this choice.

As it wears .. we'll probably replace before she reaches 11 years anyway.

For Andrew – I bought a Maxi Cosi Rodi XP to replace the booster seat he was using. I can “sell” the idea to him as it “looks like Captain Picard’s seat”

How long I can do this given he is a “big boy” now is another matter - of course.


I have never seen any stats supporting this legislation. Whilst numerous articles abound arguing for each side of debates of conventional seat belts, motorbike helmets.. cycling helmets.. and so on... I have not seen any such debate in either my copy of the BMJ or the Lancet as to how effective a car seat can be for a 12 year old.

I do know that the stats appear to show UK parents buy the most child seats in Europe - but whatever benefit is often undermined by slap dash fitting into car anyway...

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Too late for a full response now but I'll try to post one in the next day or so!

Briefly, I can sympathise! We have a 6 month old who needs to go rear-facing, a 2.5 year old who goes forward-facing in a kiddie seat and an 8 year old who has a booster cushion. In a typical 5 seater family car, it's almost impossible to close both rear doors because the three seats are so wide! In my car, (a big old saloon), we can just about do it but it only has a lap belt in the middle at the back and it's almost impossible to reach the seat belt buckles when the kids are in. I tend to have to secure the buckle on the booster seat (with the child in, obviously!) but hanging out of the door slightly and then shove the child (and seat) across and try to pull the webbing tight. It's a total pain in the butt! Fortunately, I have the use of a company MPV now (still not wide enough to get 3 seats abreast!) but at least we can have three rows of 2 seats instead.

As far as evidence goes, I have sen a few medical papers in the past and will try to root out references. I gather the biggest problem (if the kd is restrained at all!) is that because they have short legs, the legs tend to stick out in front of them rather than bending at the knee and going down to the floor. This tilts the pelvis and makes the lap belt more likely to ride up into the abdomen. In addition, because they're small, the lap belt sits at a shallower angle than it would on an adult so this tendency is even worse. I gather this study showed major internal organ (liver, I think) damage to kids in big accidents.

Also, Don't think the seats all have to be Reg 44.04 - I think any Reg 44 seats would be OK (but obviously, the newest ones are always best!)

If you have a car new enough to have "Isofix" kiddie seat fixings, it can simplify the process of fastening the little monsters up! Unfortunately, Isofix kidie seats are very expensive (and kids are quite cheap!)

Ja - there are papers which show that child in car seat may not suffer same internal organ damages. The lap strap can cut into to body in severe jolt forward ..

But then each incident ist random - but ist per experiment in TRL labs using crash test dummies which seem to show how und what kind of injuries.

But when 11 und 12 years olds are much taller und legs bend normally in the seated position in cars - they perhaps should not need them.

Also this law did say in the first press article we see that a third child could sit between the car seats using conventional belt - und no booster. But this does not stop the lap belt effect.

Und what do you do if person ist unfortunate enough to have a stunted growth... Would they have to use child seat all their lives if for some quirk of nature they do not grow beyond say 150 cm.

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Why do they make child seats so big? In my Citroen C5 three adults can fit in the back in reasonable comfort, but I can barely get the three children's seats in. I don't want a people carrier because for about 28000 ot of my 30000 miles per year there's only me and a boot full of gear in the car.

I find this law a little disturbing as in children.
We all know we must protect to best or our ability but I also see this as a height issue
Now days an twelve year old can be 1.7 metres in height (5ft 9” approximately) and to the opposite
I know a young lady of 20 years old who is 4ft 6” high Does this mean that she has to be put in a child seat?
Will it lead to the future of having a minimum height restriction to be able to drive a motor vehicle?

IRT the question about short adults having to use a booster seat.


The regulations only apply to children under 150cm or 12 years old.
Most adults I know are over 12 years old.



Presumably they will be marked as such. I'll have to check mine.

Could be a lot of old car seats hitting the landfill later this year.

When I was young (many moons ago!). My parents fitted the rear of the car with adjustable three point harnesses. These restrained both myself and by brother effectivly and safely between toddlerhood untill we were old enough to drive our own cars.

Is this sort of thing no longer available?

Dusty

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It's difficult to get the anchorage points strong enough and correctly positioned without destructively testing the car. My parents had a Sherpa camper van and rigged up something for my little brother to hold him in his kiddie seat. Looking back at the size of the reinforcement plates they put behind the steelwork, I'd be deeply suspicious of it's chances of surviving a severe stuffing! Fortunately, they never had one.

Just had a quick look into this. Don't know if it was the ROSPA site from which you got this information but it is a bit misleading! The LAW (such as it is drafted at present, anyway) will apply to kids over 1.35m tall NOT 1.5m - so that will help a bit. The EU Directive from which this comes allows Member States to opt for 1.35m or 1.5m and we're going for 1.35. (just as well or Mrs. Mole would be pretty close to needing a booster seat - although it doesn't say with or without heels! )

Also, there will be exemptions specifically to cater for the situation where three seats won't fit across the car. In these cases, it will be OK for the biggest kid to wear an adult belt. (Not that ROSPA were in a hurry to admit this!) I did get an e-mail back from them admiting it in the end though, but they pointed out that in cars where the manufacturer allows forward-facing kids in the front it would be preferable to put the third kid in the booster seat in the front rather than in an adult belt in the back.

Finally, there will also be a dispensation for "emergencies" where there is no kiddie seat available but you'd have to prove that the journey couldn't have reasonable been foreseen.

Have a look at what Britax says about choosing a seat - http://www.britax.co.uk/

Their main factor is the weight not age of the child.

I personally still prefer the old style seat , which was bolted to mounting points rather than one which relies on inertia seat belts. When i do have to fit one for grandaughter -i strap it in then pull the belt tight with a bit of weight on the seat so that the seat belt is tight .

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I've never seen a bolt-in kiddie seat -other than the odd home made installation! What do they fasten to? I agree that fastening with belts isn't that good. Too much left to the competence of the parent fitting the seat. Pre-loading the belt is, in my opinion, a good idea - I do the same fitting mine. I don't think you can put them in too tight! Best bet - (but pricey!) are the new "Isofix" ones but you need tha car to go with them!

Mole - these were the ancient versions, pre the dates when cars had seat belts as standard. Britax used to sell them and kits/ bits/instructions for fitting. Then some tyre places started doing a pro job of fitting them .Strangely enough i remember when parents would get/fit or get fitted a child seat , then drive around with either no belts in front or not use belts. Then before the law changed , child power changed our minds - nothing worse than some kid asking mum "why doesent uncle use a belt"

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Definitely Isofix is the way to go - virtually all new cars are fitted with it (all new designs have to support it, but older models don't). We have it in both cars and recently got the Britax Isofix Duo. The fitting is simple - the car as two lugs welded to the frame and about as solid as you can get, the seat has two independently sliding clips that lock over the lugs. Once engaged you push the seat in firmly and the ratchet mechanism in the seat takes up the slack leaving a seat fitting that has less slack in it than the drivers seat often has. Removal is simple: press the clip release buttons and remove seat. Tried the seat in 3 different cars and it is rock solid and quick to fit.

Pricey though!!!!

What price for your childs life? Prices will come down as production volumes go up, but even now we considered it good value as it will last for 3 more years at least for Mini Rewolf, and we plan to have another (Mini Mini Rewolf?), so add on 2 more years at least to that for child number two.

We shopped around, found a sale version in last years colours in Mothercare and used some 10% off vouchers that they sent us - £155 over five years is only £30/year or 50p/week. The lowest price we found was £137 on the net, but they were out of stock (in next week) and we needed it for the week-end, so we splashed out the extra £18 for immediate collection.

They were free actually!

I was waiting for a response like that. True enough, only about £150 a pop. Of course, if you have a 7 month old in a rear-facing seat, a 2 year old in a forward-facing seat and an 8 year old in a booster seat, it's a bit pricier. Then, there's the small matter of purchasing a car with Isofix anchorages. In fact, while I'm at it, I might as well get one with a EuroNCAP 5 star rating because, as you say, what price your child's life?!

I worry more about putting the 8 year old on the school us each morning - no booster seats and most school buses are retired "sheds" that the bus company can't use for "paying" passengers anymore with crappy untested seats bolted through a plywood floor!