Safe Speed Forums

For those of you who are hacked off about our ill-thought-through laws, here's another example that came into being on January 1st this year.

Part P of the building regulations was INTENDED to make our houses safer. But they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions... This is my views on the failings of the new law and why.

The Law says "Unless you are part P registered, you cannot install any PERMANENT electrical devices inside in a kitchen or bathroom (because of the water) or outside (because of water). You can't touch things like consumer units at all unless part P registered either. Anything installed by anyone prior to 31 December last year is exempt or ignored unles it's re-touched by new works.

Let me tell you about how "Part P" has affected me, and how I have got around it!!!!!

Like I said: The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The idiots who drafted the part P regulations (because that word fits them) may have tried to do something about a problem but have only in fact made things worse.

The first thing I knew about part P was having bought a large microwave oven at Christmas just after we moved into this house... It was too large to sit on the ledge in our old kitchen so had to be found a different site. Only problem - no sockets to feed it.

Easy enough - install a double patress connect it to the kitchen's ring and away we go. Not any more! I am not an electrician by trade (although my brother works for the London Electricity Board and specialises at floodlighting lorry parks, football grounds, etc and is on tap to me for advice at the end of a phone) and I am therefore not Part P certified.

OK, let's get a part P electrician. Well, this is not so easy. They are just a little more common than rocking horse shit but quite thin on the ground. To have a double patress installed in my kitchen will cost me £200 or more now (the parts are less than a fiver).

You'll notice I said "old" kitchen. Our new extension (housing our new kitchen) will be finished in the next few days. Why should I have had to pay anyone £200 to fit a double patress when I am more than capable of doing this competently myself for what has amounted to 8 months on a temporary basis? Because the law says so. Any way around this? Fortunately no kids around so Plug in an extension lead into the socket where the old microwave used to sit, run it around the back of the sink (with all that lovely water in it) and feed the new microwave. Legal? Yes. Safe? Certainly NO but I have obeyed the law in my own home. (are you laughing about this??)

Also, in our old kitchen (which will be ripped out in about 2 weeks time and retired, becoming a 'utility room' for washing clothes, etc) which I was going to address in the new year, the PREVIOUS OCCUPIER put the plug sockets for the dish-washer and washing machine right underneath the sink. Indeed, right underneath the overflow from the sink. No, it doesn't leak (but it might at any point - you know these things can happen). Was this legal at the time it was installed? No. Is/was it safe? No. Am I allowed to keep using it? Yes (because although undesireable it was installed prior to 31/12/04). Can I move it myself? No! But I can pay £200 to have a part P registered sparky move it to a better site for me. Great! So I can report that the dishwasher & washing machine still run off of these sockets.

Out the front we have those "Oldie-Worldie" courtessy lights illuminating the path to the front door. There are 4 of them. Problem with the lights? The previous occupier who installed them used internal twin and earth wire (rather than "armoured cable"). Problem with this? When internal twin and earth cable is used outside, the insulation is attacked by the sun's radiation and it goes 'crumbly' - eventually someone like a windowcleaner could get the full whack once the insulation has died.

Can I carry on using them? Yes - they were installed before 31-12-04. Is it safe? Not necessarily unsafe - but I'll probably get my brother to address this for me when he has a spare weekend (more about my brother in a while).

In the back garden, we've bought a 4 foot diameter water fountain. Yep, you've guessed - needs an approved sparky to 'test' and install it UNLESS it's only of a temporary nature.

What this has meant in practice is this. Our fountain is connected with an extension lead. You know, the sort that works your lawn mower. If I were to use ARMOURED CABLE (which won't kill anyone if struck by a spade, mechanical lawn-mower blade or similar), then by virtue of the fact I could not attach a 13 amp 3 pin plug at the end of it would mean it's not "temporary" thereofre needs the "jobs for the boys @ £200 a time minimum. Effectively, the less desireable least safe provision of electricity for our fountain is OK for me to do - but the "completely safe" option is something I am no longer allowed to touch myself!

Madness??

Well, my little brother is almost 40, has worked for the LEB since leaving school at 16 (did their apprenticeship) and because he has specialised to working outside with lighting for lorry parks, football pitches and the like, he actually does not as of yet have a part P certificate. So even my own brother cannot sign off my work for me (he is allowed to work on lights outside - even for domestics because of his speciality).

Now I understand why they wanted to change and tighten up the law. My little brother has told me all manner of stories about 6" nails in consumer units because the fuse kept blowing but this legislation is a bit of a joke.

No, I am NOT an electrician myself. But why didn't our politicians think about allowing me as a DIYer sit a simple exam to see whether I am competent enough to fit another patress onto a ring main? The truth of the matter is with this power-pissed nanny-state governement which feels it has to control 'everything', those people who desparately need to be stopped from working on their homes because they misguidedly think they know everything will just carry on - and people like me, who take pride in doing any DIY job properly and safely and who are fortunate enough to have a wealth of information on tap end up being stopped from doing so.

Just as a last item: I know almost nothing about "3 phase 415 volt wiring" because I (like most of you) don't have it indoors and therefore don't come across it). Red = Live Black = Neutral - they've changed red to brown and black to blue (like the colours in your plugs) for the wiring in the walls themselves. Great eh?

My little brother has informed me of this: Black - which currently is NEUTRAL in both single phase (ie what we all have indoors) and 3 phase (in 415 volt industrial uses) is going to become one of the secondary LIVE colours in 3 phase in the new 'Harmonised' colour scheme.

Roll forwards 5 or 10 years.... You're a sparky who's been asked to find a fault. Is that black cable a NEUTRAL cable or a secondary LIVE cable?? Imagine having a factory with perhaps 50 different cables feeding all sorts of machines across a shop floor. I wonder how many dead electricians we're going to have because of this - and it will be electricians who do this every day rather than competent DIYers who continually check their work who will pay for this with their lives.

Anyone else have any observations on this?

I am not an electrician, but I was given some training as part of a British Aerospace apprenticeship (as part of sponsorship for my degree in Electrical and Electronic Engineering), so I would like to think that I have some knowledge and experience. I had to do assessed exercises in industry standard wiring including steel conduit installations, and did a little with the lower voltage 3-phase.

I am not certain that the wiring colour changes should cause to much of a problem in industry because when dealing with a fault in an unknown wiring set-up you must assume that anything could be live and test accordingly.

But I am worried about the Part P certification - I replaced our built-in oven last year, which was just a simple re-wiring, and I have just replaced the light fittings in the bathroom. I am confident that I have sufficent training and awareness to do these jobs - I would even be happy to do an official training course. Are these courses available so that anybody can get trained or at least assessed?

P.s. we also have some rather dodgy looking sockets under the sink powering the dishwasher and washing machine - great eh?

In all honesty, you are NOT allowed to touch them. Getting Part P certified costs 2½ grand and lasts about a year before ongoing assessment.

What I would like to see is something like this:

If you want to do your own wiring (ONLY your own or a very close relative, for example, your 78 year old mother's and at NO PROFIT), then you are requred to sit a simple test at night school costing no more than £25 including the certificate which say you are allowed to do it.

I can tell you that I possess only 2% of the knowledge my brother has about electricity. Do I need to know the other 98% to fit a light fitting in the bathroom?

As far as I am aware, the problem in kitchens, for example, is the lack of adequate bonding (=earth straps) to pipework. Or the siting of patresses too close to cookers, sinks etc. This could easily be covered with booklets telling any competent individual "Where you must NOT site a patress" and "Things to consider".

The problem with the law as it stands is that those individuals who desparately need supervision because they "know it all" will just carry on putting "spurs on spurs on spurs" overloading cables whilst they do so, and like I say, people like me who know enough relevant information to do a job safely and competently are stopped from doing so and left in the hands of the Gods - the Part P qualified sparkies who can currently charge what they like.

Well done Tony Blair!!!!

Ahh.. but for the short term there is a solution. Especially if you've moved fairly recently (or even if you haven't).

AFAIK there are no date stamps or similar on the patresses or sockets you buy from C&R or A&P or wherever. Therefore, go ahead and fit them. If anyone subsequently asks just tell 'em "It was already there guv" and see them try to prove otherwise.

Now, given the threads in some of the other fora on SafeSpeed that may not be an acceptable option as you are out and out breaking the law. Not to mention telling porkies. However, if it works............

Donning flame proof garments and ducking, Chris.

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Stultus est sicut stultus facit - a known fact
Stercus accidit - a truism!

It all comes down to knowing that they changed the law, and the fact that you don't need to get inspected for minor changes. I know ignorance is no defence, but why I would go and check all the regulations to do a bit of simple wiring using standards that the rest of the house is built to? It is not as if they have told me that they changed the rules is it?

Ignorance is no defence (and won't be if you get caught out).

I have known about the part P farce since the middle of last year. Read somewhere that it will save at most three or four lives a year. That's the number of people kileld by dodgy installations covered by the new regulations.

Paul,

If it makes you feel any better I am a fully qualified Electrical Engineer with all qualifications up to date and more, yet I to am not qualified to Part P, so there saying that I'm not a competant person. If I want Part P I have to pay for the privilage. This is just another money raising scam.

Even if I do work for myself in my own home (or anybody else's home) under Part P I have to have it inspected by another company covered under Part P, or a so called inspector from the council at a cost of around £200 (I Think)

If anybody is interested this is a link to the Building Regs guide and it includes Part P. Be careful if your on dial up its 1.6mb in size.

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/ ... 609257.pdf

Cheers
Dixie

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Like I said at the top of the thread - on principle, I have NOT paid £200 to have a new patress installed by someone else when I could have done the job myself - I have NOT broken the law either, however.

I have taken photographs and written a nice letter to my local MP hoghlighting just how much of an ass the law is (some safety scheme this, eh - can no longer fit a patress {just assuming I really am competent enough to do this}, so run an extension lead around the back of the sink!!!!)

Can they change the law about extension leads???

If they do - every time you want to mow your lawn and go to plug in its power lead you will need a part P certificate! The law is a complete and utter prat-type laugh.

We can all put an extension cable in the garden (which will likely kill if cut by a spade or bitten by a dog, etc - aside of the inconvenience of losing one's supply)... But unless part P registered, you can't use armoured cable.

Whoever dreamt this whole thing up is a grade A plonker.

If they allowed those who want to work ontheir own homes to sit a modest test to make sure that they are competent in what they want to do, then people can be examined (and the idiots stopped) if they make this available.

Sure, I'd love to demonstrate I am capable of extending a ring main in my own kitchen safely. Should I really have to go and sit a 2½ grand exam to be able to do so??? Or jst plug in and drapse an unsuitable extension lead otherwise??

Power and control freakery. Time the government thought very carefully about its legislation rather than rush all manner of ills through.

I know what most people will do.

This change in the rules was driven by the Electrical Contractors Association who wanted to see their member's status as equivalent to CORGI gas fitters. Would you do a bit of DIY gas fitting in your house? I probably wouldn't. Same logic applies except that it is far less likely for electricity to leak out of wires and kill you or explode.

It does, of course, give ECA members more captive business which cannot be legally undertaken by unqualified persons.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Gas - yep, in one respect, I can understand why for the gas: Although I have run a pipe all the way around a kitchen before just leaving the end to be connected to the gas main by the meter by a CORGI engineer and tested for leaks (lo and behold - it didn't).

Yes, I can see what they are after IDEALLY but stopping EVERYONE from touching their own houses unless money is involved is not on, really.

This is legislation dreamt up by idiots

But the crazy thing is that you CAN do DIY gas fitting without being CORGI registered, all perfectly legal.

It's not as bad as Australia - over there you cannot repair any domestic appliance without being registered.

Gareth

I've always felt most confident doing electrics round the house. I'd always worry that any plumbing I tried might not be 100% watertight (with good reason ) but it's not like you can have a puddle of electricity where it's dripped out of a wire all over the carpet. And basic stuff like socket fascias and light fittings... not really any harder than changing a plug. I'm no DIY expert but have changed plenty of single socket fascias to doubles and changed almost every light fitting in the house. More extensive wiring stuff I got the sparks in to do since floorboards would have to come up and frankly it would take me a week to do what they did in a day, and that's when it's worth having professionals do the job. This whole Part P stuff is a waste of time and practially unenforceable AFAICT. Are B&Q going to ask to see your documentation if you nip down there for a few metres of armoured cable? 'Cos if not there's nothing to stop you buying it, and having bought it and used it who can tell if it was put down before or after January 1st? Barking

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

I completely agree with you. This new regulation is complete nonsense and nothing more than a money making scam.

My father, now retired, worked his whole life as an electrial engineer. He's even certified for switching High Voltages (the sort which cause substations to vapourise if you do it wrong).

I've helped him on a number of jobs and he's taught me everything I need to know about domestic wiring. Now, because of part P, neither of us can legally do any DIY electrical work in our own homes.

Fortunately I finished completely rewiring my house before the regulations came into force.

I am an electrician by trade, and yes, like all the other posters I'm now no longer permitted to do wiring jobs in my own house.

These new regs are 50% about "jobs for the boys" and empire building, and 50% nanny state, hand-wringing, "something needs to be done"ism! Oh, and of course with yet more revenue raising thrown in via the need for inspections etc.

The sneaky way that the Gov't plan to check up on this is by aligning this with the barmy new EU colour coding. Basically, if you buy cable now it will have brown/blue cores, whereas older cable will have red/black. So in theory an inpector can tell whether a circuit should have an installation ceritificate by looking to see what colour the insulation is. Of course there is now a thriving market in secondhand cable, which again will have a knock-on effect on "real" safety.

The bare truth is that some DIY jobs are carried out by incompetent careless people. They will continue to do so and will very occasionally cause fires and electrocution, just like they've always done. Meanwhile, the careful responsible DIY sparkie will actually be aware of the new regs and will simply have to pay through the nose either to have someone else do jobs for him, or to get his own work needlessly inspected. Or, as noted earlier, he can simply resort to bodge-ups such as using "temporary" leads instead.

Mind you, if this continues (which it almost certainly will) I'm strongly considering going and getting myself Part P certified, as I'm reliably informed that the demand this beaurocracy has created means that you can damn near name your price now, if you are suitably certified.

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

While we're on the subject, why do they have this mania built into the regs for earthing plumbing?

Most electrocutions take place when some unfortunate completes a circuit from live to earth across the chest (i.e. arm to arm). So providing nice solid earths in kitchens and bathrooms is dangerous. In these days of plastic plumbing we should surely be leaving taps and sink units floating to limit the quality of the path to earth.

The risk of getting live wiring shorted to plumbing is surely much much less than the risk of faulty equipment in one hand and rock solid earth in the other?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

This is true. I have bought and fitted (gas bearing) parts to my gas boiler on several occasions. You only need to be Corgi registered if you are charging for the work.

You can also do pretty much any work you like on your car.

true, but IMO an even bigger risk is not thinking things through properly to begin with.

[Gatsobait cautionary tale]Changing a double light switch fascia, one which controls the hallway lights downstairs and the landing lights upstairs. I can imagine JT and some others can see what's coming and are already chuckling away. I'd already pulled the fuse for the lighting ring before I even got the screwdriver out to remove the old fascia... but only the downstairs lighting ring . I'd forgotten the bloody obvious - that it has to connect to the upstairs lighting ring as well. D'oh! Needless to say once I'd got the wiring exposed the sequence of events went more or less ck it ocks pull the other fuse, carry on where I left off, replace fuses and . Fortunately not a big shock, and bloody glad it wasn't off a mains ring, though since you'd never have sockets for upstairs and downstairs like light switches that wouldn't have happened. Besides, only got one mains ring for the whole house so if I pull that fuse all the sockets are out. Still, when in doubt I'll flip the main switch on the fuseboard in future.[/cautionary tale]

Don't you buggers laugh, okay.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Always use an electrical test screwdriver to check ALL of the exposed metal bits before assuming that they are safe to touch.

Sorry, am I missing something here?? Mains ring = 240V, Lighting circuit = 240V, the difference is in the fuse rating. Mains usually 13A while lighting usually 5A (or the equivalent in breakers)

As an electrical engineer, I've copped enough shocks off both in my time and I can't really say I've noticed any difference. Unless of course you're stood in a bath at the time and grab hold of the exposed lead with a wet hand!

Given the typical resistance of the human body (generally thought to be in the region of 10KOhms) this gives an approximate current draw of .025A )or 25 milliAmps) which is way below the fuse ratings. All the fuse does is govern the max current deliverable. If you're in the bath you could be down to 1KOhm resistance in which case you'll draw 10x the current or 250 milliAmps.

Could kill under those circumstances. But both circuits are equally dangerous as they are both fused well in excess of any likely current draw from your body.

Cheers, Chris.

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Stultus est sicut stultus facit - a known fact
Stercus accidit - a truism!