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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 19:10 
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Within 24 hours my journey home from work has been plunged into darkness.
Apparently according to propaganda this is safer for children travelling to school.

My experience is that many children are bussed or driven to school - and in fact are more at risk as they play out in the street in the dark when they are home in the evening!

Meanwhile I am subject to drivers who fail to dip their lights, or double the dazzle as drivers drive illegally with their fog lights on.
The worst conditions are when it rains - and in the absence of wipers my glasses stop all forward vision when confronted with on coming traffic!

But enough about me.
ROSPA say that the changing hour on our clocks results in more accidents on the road.
In Russia, they say there are more suicides at this time of year - although I cannot think what mechanism causes that.
However, the Russians ARE sufficiently worked up about it to STOP changing the clocks - instead choosing to remain in permanent summer time.

I have long advocated this.
Changing the clocks is the most stupid course of action ever invented. What on earth possessed people to think they could change time by changing a clock?
Animals and young children continue to wake up at the same time of day - even I woke up at the same time this morning as I have all week.
The sun still came up and went down at nearly exactly the time it did yesterday.
However, all over the world, millions of clocks and watches have been altered... and they were not all conveniently on the mantleshelf!
Shift workers working overnight had to finish early to keep the shifts on track. Of course in March they will have to work an EXTRA hour to change it back!
A few hapless souls will have got up early - even turned up for work early. Some may even have adjusted their clocks the wrong way and arisen/turned up TWO hours early!
In March, a number will be similarly LATE getting up or getting to work!

Patients on time dependent medicines will have had to delay their next course - and of course will have to get up an hour earlier in March.

Many people have told me they welcome the extra hour in bed - but it is Sunday - you are free to take the extra hour if you wish any way - but you will have an hour LESS in March like it or not!

So, WHY WHY WHY do we do this?
Scottish farmers want it?
They will NOT get an hour of extra daylight - today the daylight is no different to what it would have been whatever the clock reads.

It is time to end this nonsense now - see sense like Russia.

Discuss.... :whome: :scratchchin:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 08:38 
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I seem to remember years ago ,it was still dark at 7.30 in the winter mornings going to work (Inverness shire),but it got light not long after .Possibly again "the children " being the excuse for this .Possibly the real reason - employers could see more working hours from staff .

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 20:16 
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Why can't school just be ended an hour earlier in the winter months instead of dicking about with the clocks?? If it is such a problem for the little darlings going home then send them home earlier instead of inconveniencing everyone else. Shorten the school holidays to make up the lost time. Would probably only need an extra week.

The BST experiment didn't work either as it was often dark until 10am even down here. That's just as miserable if not more so.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 00:40 
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teabelly wrote:
Why can't school just be ended an hour earlier in the winter months instead of dicking about with the clocks?? If it is such a problem for the little darlings going home then send them home earlier instead of inconveniencing everyone else. Shorten the school holidays to make up the lost time. Would probably only need an extra week.

The BST experiment didn't work either as it was often dark until 10am even down here. That's just as miserable if not more so.

Whoa! :whome:

Any sudden outbreak of common sense will not go down well with those in power... or Alex Salmond! :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 03:51 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
Shift workers working overnight had to finish early to keep the shifts on track. Of course in March they will have to work an EXTRA hour to change it back!


See how much confusion this causes, even people ranting about it get it the wrong way round.

When the clocks go back then the night shift works the extra hour. When they go forward in March we get to work an hour less. ;)

Just like those who were in bed got an extra hour sleep on Saturday night.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 06:41 
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Homer wrote:
Ernest Marsh wrote:
Shift workers working overnight had to finish early to keep the shifts on track. Of course in March they will have to work an EXTRA hour to change it back!


See how much confusion this causes, even people ranting about it get it the wrong way round.

When the clocks go back then the night shift works the extra hour. When they go forward in March we get to work an hour less. ;)

Just like those who were in bed got an extra hour sleep on Saturday night.

Actually I cut and pasted a bit from my rant in March and forgot to alter all the relevant bits! :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 09:57 
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If the primary objection is to having to change the clocks, remember that the aberration from the norm is not putting them back in October, but putting them forward in March. If we wanted to stick as closely as possible to "natural" time we would leave the clocks on GMT all year round, as we did before the First World War.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:05 
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I left a message on a patient's answer machine yesterday saying I'm running late and will be there closer to 11:30 a.m. instead. I turned up just before 11:00; ahead of the appt time :stupidme: :oops:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 15:41 
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PeterE wrote:
If the primary objection is to having to change the clocks, remember that the aberration from the norm is not putting them back in October, but putting them forward in March. If we wanted to stick as closely as possible to "natural" time we would leave the clocks on GMT all year round, as we did before the First World War.

I don't really care what they leave it on - although it would make life simpler to adopt CET - as long as THEY left IT alone too!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 16:31 
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I’m sure I’ve mentioned this before but my suggestion was why not just have one time for the whole globe? It’s purely a number by which we do things after all.

So, as an example, if I go to work at 8:30 a.m. and leave at 5:00 p.m here in the UK, then if I go to work in California the start and finish time, (on their clocks), would be 12:30 a.m to 9:00 a.m. respectively. You just have to get out of the mindset that work begins in the morning at what everyone thinks of as 8:30 a.m. But why is this? The world is a village these days and, just like a village, you don't need different time zones.

Then also dispense with a.m. and p.m. since this term also becomes meaningless and instead use the 24 hour clock. The 24 hour clock simply becomes a means to differentiate between the 24 hours of one day; not morning or afternoon. I could suggest our watches and clocks could indicate 24 hour positions instead of 12. :o (Sorry Rolex owners :D )

I think it would be an advantage too that if you are a globetrotter you don’t have to change your watches; you just need to know when 'things are done and happen' where you are. Is this too ‘out there’ or unworkable?

If we inhabit the moon one day would we base the things we do and happen relative to the Earth, the sun or one complete rotation of the Moon? Indeed, would we feel the same need to chop it into bite-size time zones like here?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 00:01 
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The old Soviet Union used to use a single official time zone despite stretching across nearly a third of the globe. Each area set irs own working hoursa to correspond with daylight.

For modern indoor workers it is the height of foolishness to set working hours to correspond with daylight. It means that you can go from Sunday evening 'till Saturday morning without getting outside in daylight. It would make much greater sense to start work at 2am and finish at 10am thereby having at least six hours of daylight leisure before going to bed

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 09:54 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
The old Soviet Union used to use a single official time zone despite stretching across nearly a third of the globe. Each area set irs own working hoursa to correspond with daylight.
That's interesting dcb and exactly what I'm talking about thanks. So it can be done then. Presumably there's no reason why it couldn’t be done globally. Like you say, they all get up and go to work and what time that is would be immaterial. I’m not explaining this very well but your example helps and I'm not going mad. :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 16:05 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
It would make much greater sense to start work at 2am and finish at 10am thereby having at least six hours of daylight leisure before going to bed



Sorry - looks nice on paper ,but try it in practice - I worked very odd hours for the last ten years and after a few days of shifts like that - you're ( in the vernackalur sp?) knackered.
Be better off to have at least two time zones in UK .Example - as a teenager I used to take dog for a walk at 2200 -2300 in Summer in a little place opposite Skye( be on a par northward with SS2) - in almost daylight . In winter -it was dark on way to work at 07.30, and not safe to work outside after 16.30.And that's a few hundred milesfrom te northern tip .
edit - but organisations like the rail services /airlines etc depend on a UK wide universal time zone . Be interesting to see how they would cope (because it's the UK) - the likes of the States do .

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 21:12 
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botach wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
It would make much greater sense to start work at 2am and finish at 10am thereby having at least six hours of daylight leisure before going to bed

Sorry - looks nice on paper ,but try it in practice - I worked very odd hours for the last ten years and after a few days of shifts like that - you're ( in the vernackalur sp?) knackered.


I worked a 1400 - 2200 shift for several years and I never felt better. Get up at 0700, several hours of daylight even in mid Winter before you go to work, and time for a pint or two after work.

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Be better off to have at least two time zones in UK .Example - as a teenager I used to take dog for a walk at 2200 -2300 in Summer in a little place opposite Skye( be on a par northward with SS2) - in almost daylight .

Yes indeed. In Ullapool in June I have read a newspaper by natural light at midnight. And been benighted at 5pm in February

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but organisations like the rail services /airlines etc depend on a UK wide universal time zone . Be interesting to see how they would cope (because it's the UK) - the likes of the States do .


Airlines? Surely airlines are more than used to coping with many time zones in a journey. As are continental and American railways.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 13:38 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
botach wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
It would make much greater sense to start work at 2am and finish at 10am thereby having at least six hours of daylight leisure before going to bed

Sorry - looks nice on paper ,but try it in practice - I worked very odd hours for the last ten years and after a few days of shifts like that - you're ( in the vernackalur sp?) knackered.


I worked a 1400 - 2200 shift for several years and I never felt better. Get up at 0700, several hours of daylight even in mid Winter before you go to work, and time for a pint or two after work.

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Be better off to have at least two time zones in UK .Example - as a teenager I used to take dog for a walk at 2200 -2300 in Summer in a little place opposite Skye( be on a par northward with SS2) - in almost daylight .

Yes indeed. In Ullapool in June I have read a newspaper by natural light at midnight. And been benighted at 5pm in February

Quote:
but organisations like the rail services /airlines etc depend on a UK wide universal time zone . Be interesting to see how they would cope (because it's the UK) - the likes of the States do .


Airlines? Surely airlines are more than used to coping with many time zones in a journey. As are continental and American railways.

Referring to those who aren't used to multi time zones .( as said -this is the UK where anything out of the norm gets difficult)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 16:42 
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People are always resistant to change even if it’s for the better. I’ve made suggestions at work 10 years ago which we’re ignored, only for some nob manager to get the credit for it now. :banghead: :x

At the time I got the classic reply, “but we’ve always done it that way”. :banghead: Yes, but that doesn’t make it the best way you numpty! :banghead:

Until things break or until it hurts the manager directly they just don’t see the light. :banghead:

I don’t bother making suggestions anymore, and I suggest you all do the same. :D

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:49 
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It appears that there are far more serious issues than worrying about changing the clocks back and forth.... by ONLY an hour!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15546124

Quote:
Time, as we know it, could soon be in for a radical change.

This week, scientists at the Royal Society are discussing whether we need to come up with a new definition of the world's time scale: Coordinated Universal Time (UTC).

And the main issue up for debate is the leap second - and whether we should abolish it.

The leap second came into existence in 1972. It is added to keep the time-scale based on atomic clocks in phase with the time-scale that is based on the Earth's rotation.

Atomic clocks are much better at keeping time than the Earth
The reason for this is that while atomic clocks, which use the vibrations in atoms to count the seconds, are incredibly accurate, the Earth is not such a reliable time-keeper thanks to a slight wobble as it spins on its axis.

Rory McEvoy, curator of horology at the UK's Royal Observatory in Greenwich, explained: "Since the 1920s, it has been known, and previously suspected, that the motion of the Earth is not quite as constant as we'd first thought."

This means that time based on atomic clocks and time based on Earth drift ever further out of phase over time.

So every few years, before the difference has grown to more than 0.9 seconds, an extra second - called the leap second - is added to snap the two back into synch.

"The International Earth Rotation Service monitors the Earth's activity, and they decide when it is appropriate to add a leap second into our time-scale," said Mr McEvoy.

But the call to get rid of the leap second is causing a rift within the international time community, and it will come to a head at a vote at the World Radio Conference of the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) in January 2012 in Geneva.

An informal survey by the ITU earlier this year revealed that three countries - the UK, China and Canada, are strongly against changing the current system.

However 13 countries, including the Unites States, France, Italy and Germany, want a new time-scale that does not have leap seconds. But with nearly 200 member states, this still leaves many others that have yet to reveal their position.

The International Bureau of Weights and Measures (BIPM) in Paris is the international standards organisation that is responsible for maintaining the world's time. It thinks that the leap second should go because these one second adjustments are becoming increasingly problematic for systems that need a stable and continuous reference time-scale.

The leap second is troublesome for applications that require constant time
Dr Felicitas Arias, director of the BIPM's time department and co-organiser of the meeting at the Royal Society, explained: "It is affecting telecommunications, it is problematic for time transfer by the internet (such as the network time protocol, NTP) as well as for financial services.

"Another application that is really very, very affected by the leap second is time synchronisation in Global Navigation Satellite Systems (GNSS).
"GNSS rely on perfect time synchronisation - and leap seconds are a nuisance."

One problem is that because the changes in the Earth's rotation are not regular, leap seconds are also erratic, and only six months' notice is given for each one.

Diverging time

But the countries that are against losing the leap second, including the UK, say the problems are being exaggerated.

Peter Whibberley, senior research scientist in time and frequency at the National Physical Laboratory, in Teddington, said: "When the UK government did a survey of government agencies, they couldn't find anyone who was concerned with leap seconds. So we don't see the evidence presented for the problems caused by leap seconds as being all that serious."

But decoupling civil time from the Earth's rotation could also have longer-term consequences.

Dr Whibberley explained: "[If you lost leap seconds] UTC would drift apart from time based on the Earth's rotation, it would gradually diverge by an increasing amount of time. Something would have to be done to correct the increasing divergence."

Unlinking time from the Earth's rotation has long-term consequences
Over a few decades this would amount to a minute's difference, but over several hundred years this would mean the atomic clock time-scale and the time-scale based on the Earth's rotation would be out by an hour.

In 2004, the idea of swapping leap seconds for a leap hour in a few hundred years' time was proposed. But Dr Whibberley said most scientists agreed that this would be even more problematic.

He explained: "It was dropped quickly. The general feeling was that you could never implement a leap hour as they are much harder to do than the leap seconds, and if you can't cope with leap seconds, it would be much harder to cope with a leap hour."

One possible solution, if the leap second is abolished, could be to tie in any changes with daylight saving changes - even though this would take place in a few centuries' time.

"Countries could just accommodate the divergence by not putting their clocks forward in the spring, so you'd change your time zone by one hour to bring civil time back into line with the Earth's rotation," added Dr Whibberley.

Dr Arias said it was looking increasingly likely that leap seconds may be voted out in January, but that the meeting at the Royal Society could help to thrash out ideas that could offset any problems this loss could cause.

"The point is we can find a compromise, there are possibilities of leaving the time open for synchronisation in the future," she said.


So who wants to see the demise of the leap second..? :whome:
It would seem that a slavish belief and adherence to an accurate time source is not really the be all and end all of society and the way it sees time!

I must go and see if Dr WHO can sort this latest problem out! :bluelight: :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 16:49 
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With all the EU insistance on compatibility and conformonity ,I'm suprised that we don't have to adopt EU MT and next item - some EU bureacrat will decided that days will be 10 hours ,not 12 :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 02:32 
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Finally found the links that relate to this :
http://www.roadsafetyanalysis.org/2010/ ... ht-saving/
http://www.roadsafetyanalysis.org/wp-co ... t-2010.pdf
http://www.roadsafetyanalysis.org/ (part way down the page)
http://www.roadsafetyanalysis.org/2011/ ... -unveiled/

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 23:30 
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15646812
Quote:
Clock change 'stops outdoor play'
By Helen Briggs
Health editor, BBC News website

Not putting the clocks back would help in the fight against child obesity, a study suggests.
According to research, children are more influenced by daylight than the weather when deciding whether or not to play outside.

UK researchers report that not changing the clocks would give more opportunities for active play.
It strengthens the public health arguments for proposed changes to daylight saving, they say.

The research, published in the Journal of Physical Activity and Health, studied the activity levels of 325 children in south-east England aged between eight and 11.
The children wore accelerometers to record the amount of exercise they did, and kept a record of their activities in a diary.
A team from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and University College London found the children did more exercise outside on longer days, particularly at the end of the day during summer.

This provides the most direct evidence yet that changing the clocks so that there is more daylight in the afternoon could increase children's physical activity

Outdoor play was a bigger factor in overall physical activity than other factors such as structured sport sessions and cycling or walking to school, the team says.

Co-researcher Dr Anna Goodman, of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, told the BBC: "This provides the most direct evidence yet that changing the clocks so that there is more daylight in the afternoon could increase children's physical activity."

She added: "The fact that kids spend more time playing outdoors and are more physically active overall on these longer days could be important at a population level for promoting their fitness and in preventing child obesity.

"This strengthens the public health argument for the Daylight Saving Bill currently under consideration by the House of Commons, which proposes putting the clocks forward by an extra hour all year round."

The clocks were moved forward by an hour during World War II to increase productivity at munitions factories and help people get home safely before the blackout.

But some health experts argue that a change to this tradition would give children more opportunities for outdoor play, as well as making it safer for them to travel home from school.

'Safe space'
Tam Fry, a spokesperson for the National Obesity Forum, said: "The longer the daylight hours, the longer kids will play. They really don't seem to care much about the weather but they do care about the dark.

"They need clearly to see the environment in which they can roam unfettered, and it should be no surprise that longer summer evenings provide that environment.

"They will be healthier and fitter from their outdoor play. Pack them all off to a safe space until bedtime."

Ministers are writing to counterparts in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to seek a UK-wide consensus on a trial.
It would see the UK adopt Central European Time, with BST plus one hour in summer and GMT plus one in winter.


You see... I knew there was a reason why I was overweight - it is the hour going back that did it! :lol:

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