Safe Speed Forums

As a foreigner I have a question.

In a discussion it was brought up the UK highway code does not have (or does no longer have) the basic rule "right has way" on junctions with equal roads without any prioritization indicated (lines, or stop signs, or give way signs). I have been searching the UK highway code on http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk , and indeed, I cannot find the rule "right has way".

Now my question is: is "right has way" in the UK highway or is it not. Or has it never been in. And how traffic is being prioritized then on junctions with equal roads without any prioritization indicated?
I am sure you guys know all about it.

Welcome PeterC.

We have no such priority rule. In almost every situation one road is designated as "major" and the other as "minor". Traffic on the minor road is expected to give way (= give priority).

On rare (very rare) occasions you may find a junction where priority isn't clear. In such cases we all give way and try to let the other chap go first.

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Paul Smith
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Hmmm....not always

No indeedy - in the good ol' US of A such a thing is known as a 4-way stop. The key question in the Texas driving test is "Four vehicles are waiting at a 4-way stop. Who has the right of way?" Answer: "The redneck in the pickup with the gun rack and the bumper sticker reading 'Guns don't kill people - I kill people'!" I hear this question is about to be introduced in certain parts of Birmingham.

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Keep right on to the end of the road ...

Nah mate ..... all over the UK more like.....

OK, so you don't need it anymore. But what about the past: did it not used to be a rule in the past?

We do not have a "priority a droite" as they do in France .....

Rules150-166 cover rules and advice regarding turning left or right at junctions and roundabouts.

I suspect you may be after answer to "unmarked junctions" which is covered by rule 124... which says no-one has priority ... in shich case you apply rule 125 ... which is the one concerning "courtesy"

Have fun .... cos almost nobody usesrule 125

In Australia it's give way to the right when all else fails. An example would be a crossroad without any signs or with failed traffic signals.

We have a terminating T rule where a vehicle on the terminating road has to give way, such as a side street entering a main road, but most of these have Stop or Give Way signs anyway.

I am very surprised there is no fall back position in the UK because otherwise it ends up in anarchy with the most agressive winning or a crash with no winner.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

Sounds very much like the minor meets major road that InGear was talking about. Almost all of these are marked by signs or road markings to show which road is which. Unmarked ones are usually made obvious by the road layout and your terminating T rule would apply again, even without road markings. An unmarked crossroads would be more confusing, but I don't think I've ever seen one. Maybe there are still a few out in sparsely populated rural areas, but still rare as hens teeth. Even on some fairly narrow west country back roads I've seen give way lines painted on the roads.

It might sound like that, but it isn't really. For one thing in rush hour anarchy takes the form of traffic jams, and no-one ends up going anywhere fast . Kidding aside, with so few junctions where priority is ambiguous there's rarely a problem with priority. Where it all falls down is drivers that forget all the rules a fortnight after they passed the L test, drunks, thieves, boy racers, potheads and other junkies, bad and/or inattentive drivers who don't see the other car or didn't judge distance/speed, and plain dickheads who ignore priorities. I'm not too sure a fall back position would do much to change any of them.

Where you do have a point is in case of traffic light failure. All the Highway Code says about failed trafic lights is "proceed with caution", and maybe we could do with something a little more specific. One local crossroads seems to conk out every few months. I find it a little hairy crossing it and tend to turn left when there's a gap and go round the houses to join the main road further down. Since you've brought it up I realise that I am actually giving way to the right, as is virtually everyone else. I think this is simply drivers assessing the situation and working out what's safest for themselves. Perhaps the rule about giving way to the right on roundabouts (and that at least is a rule) influences that too.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

We don't really have that many unmarked junctions, I can think of ... umm ... one, and that was close to the test centre where I passed my driving test and may not exist any more.

Even single track roads in the most remote parts of the Scottish Highlands are either marked or one road is obviously more major than the other (hence has right of way).

Even where right of way is clearly marked, such as mini roundabouts, you will get deadlock with everyone giving everyone else priority. We are not yet quite the savages In Gear seems to think. Perhaps his view is somewhat warped by being continually exposed to the worst of humanity (and I don't just mean his colleagues ).

Here, in darkest Cornwall, we have many places where single-track roads of equal stature cross and where no priority is indicated. Strangely, accidents at such junctions are very rare. There is no "right has way" rule but the vehicle arriving first is usually given priority. Sometimes, you end up with both vehicles waiting for the other, but that gets resolved with a quick flash of headlights or a wave, with the driver accepting priority lifting a hand in acknowledgement. It's not in the highway code (unless that counts as rule 125), but it works.

However, those accursed mini-roundabouts are entirely another issue. All too often, as Homer wrote, everyone gives way to everyone else. A problem then arises if everyone decides to take the offered priority at the same time.

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Will

I was going to say the same thing about north Wales, especially up on the moors around Halkyn and Denbigh.



This type of strategy is sometimes known as a Backoff Algorithm, where both parties "back off" for a (random) period, then one makes his move, with a signal or by pulling out. One problem is that the random period could be (almost) the same for both parties, and another iteration is required to resolve the misunderstanding. Another problem is that either party does not know about this 'unofficial' protocol, or is greedy and doesn't comply. We have all seen the mix ups that can happen at mini-roundabouts that result from this confusion. If it is happening, it should be described to new drivers, e.g. in the highway code.



This is a deadlock situation. Give way to the right cannot solve that one, as far as I know. One solution to deadlock is the Backoff Algorithm, which has the inherent faults above. Another solution involves the use of traffic lights to coordinate the flows. This is used increasingly here. I can't say it works any better on the average.

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I stole this .sig

I never have a problem with this one. You only ned to give way the the car to the right has crossed the line. If I get to a 3 way mini roundabout and the car on the right is stationary or slowing down to stop I go...simple as that. I have never had a problem. I frequently see mini soundabouts with all the case sitting there waiting...it's daft. By mini round about I am refering to a spot of at least 2M in diameter.

In Leicester we have mini roundabouts that are less than a meter in diameter. They are lethal. The only reason they are there is to act as an hazard to slow down traffic on a trunk road. Most drivers just go over the top, that's when it gets dangerous. Anything turning right and not indicating is going to have a head-on crash. They should be dug up in my opinion.

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Speed camera policy Kills

I'm glad it works for you, but say (for a bit of fun) there were three Gizmos in the world, and they were all 30 yards from a perfect 3 branch mini-roundabout and they were appraoching at the same speed and would arive at exactly the same time, cross the line at the same time and go around at the same time. Would your method still work?

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I stole this .sig

Yep...Never failed yet....
I can always tell when some one is going to enter the island from my right. I's about reading the road ahead...
Not getting there. Stopping then thinking what do I do now..

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Speed camera policy Kills

The "right hand priority rule" on the Continent is something you have to be constantly alert for. A colleague was driving at about 110 kph on a six lane road in Belgium, when Farmer Pierre ambled out of what was little more than a paved farm track. The resultant accident was epic in scale and it was very fortunate that nobody was killed. My friend, however, was in the wrong because the car he hit had come from the right.

I lived in Germany twenty years ago. At that time, the right hand priority rule even applied to roundabouts. It only took about fifteen years for them to realise that this was a recipe for terminal traffic jams. Now, at least on roundabouts, it seems that sanity has prevailed on the Continent.

In a perfect world that is exactly how it would work. But it is the kind of co-operation I have seen only rarely.

Thanks for directing me to the rules handling priority.

Did the right hand priority rule used to be in the highway code in the past? I mean, was it scrapped as the result of a traffic policy to mark all junctions?

That was the case all over the continent, explaining why roundabouts did not develop as a natural way to handle traffic on junctions, and why we instead covered our roads with red light crossings.

Oh goody, this is my favourite pet peeve about the Dutch road system... who has right of way.

Frequent scenario, tootling along road in residential area, road from right 20 yards ahead, car approaching from right, quick mental check "did I just pass a yellow diamond sign meaning I've got priority?", calculate that I will hit other car if it continues and pulls out, slow down, see other car has also slowed down, notice that his "T-junction" ends with painted "shark's teeth" markings, meaning that he's got to stop, check that he is indeed stopping, continue past safely but over-cautiously, secretly wish that this particular UK road convention was universally applied in the Netherlands

...because a bit further down the road the car coming from the right DOES have right of way, and pulls out quickly, often with only a cursory look to his left (more out of habit than functional, he'd have to do an emergency stop if you didn't give way to him, and he'd be in the right if you collided). Oh well, I suppose it keeps you on your toes.

But the UK system is far simpler, less ambiguous, and to my mind, safer.

Oh, and Ryujin, I'm afraid that many roundabouts in the Netherlands still adopt the crazy "give way to traffic from the right" rule, meaning that at busy times the whole roundabout is full of vehicles trying to let even more vehicles onto the roundabout... I didn't believe it till I experienced it myself!

[ Note - probably don't need to say this, but for completeness: vehicles drive on the right side of the road in the Netherlands, except when I've been visiting the UK and drive off the ferry at Hoek van Holland and forget which country I'm in ) ]