Safe Speed Forums

Eh? Why? 'Filter in turn' is co-operation, not courtesy.

'Be courteous' is a good message.

'Give me courtesy now' is a bad message.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Well…I’m thinking of situations where there isn’t equal priority. In the Channel Islands they are displayed at roundabouts where courtesy may be relevant without them.

Is this different to buses wishing to pull out?

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

Traffic Commissioners are the ones keeping tabs on the bus operating companies...






I'm not aware of any drivers being fired for late running, though persistently being later than average is something they're likely to get called into the office for. However, early running is entirely under the control of the driver...

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Chris

How much does slowing down and letting a bus pull out cost in terms of time? 30 seconds? More? Less, even?

Or is it a matter of principle?

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www.thatsnews.org.uk / www.thatsnews.blogspot.com / http://thatsmotoring.blogspot.com/

How do you know how slow the bus is going to be until it's too late?

Another problem is that a lot of buses seem to have adverts on the back. That is just nasty. Being in front is easier from that point of view. Also you can see what is ahead.

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Andrew.

If you're following a rural bus that doesn't stop that often (being empty apart from the driver ), getting past when it does stop can save an awful lot of time further down the journey at no disbenefit to the bus

I can see why the 'let buses out' rule is of use in busy traffic, but not on quiet rural roads.

Adverts on the back of a bus is "Just nasty" In what way?

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www.thatsnews.org.uk / www.thatsnews.blogspot.com / http://thatsmotoring.blogspot.com/

Well it is an advert.
And it is in your face.
And you have no way to get rid of it because closing your eyes would raise other problems.

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Andrew.

I have to say I don't see "Please allow the bus to pull out" as a "demand for courtesy". A polite request surely? I really can't see it's anything to be exercised about. Your 'equal treatment' objection woulkd be fair enough, all else being equal. But it isn't. A bus needs a substantially bigger gap in traffic than an 'average' car because of its lack of acceleration capacity. It is perhaps unhappy that good manners have to be requested but surely not offensive (not to me anyway).

The waiter asking for a tip analogy is not apt. The cost of a tip is a real detriment to the giver so it's a lot more than a 'courtesy'. It is surely intrinsic in the nature of a 'courtesy' that there is little or no real 'cost' to the person giving it.

By this logic we should "please let the lorry go first". Is this OK?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

I can tell you for sure that I find it deeply offensive. The evidence of this thread is of quite a few shades of opinion, from 'good idea' to 'deeply offensive'.

What I may not be able to do in sufficient detail is explain exactly why I feel that way. Examples are littered throughout the thread, but have we arrived at the crux? I'm not sure.

But beyond the way I feel, I am sure that there is a rational practical problem. In marginal cases it's entirely possible for two parties to both believe that they have right of way. I see that as a dangerous blurring of road safety principles.

For an example of a marginal case consider the time continuum from:

a) A bus far ahead indicates and pulls out. There is no need to give way.
b) While you are alongside a bus, its indicator comes on to pull out. It isn't possible to give way.

Somewhere between a and b there must be a two priority transitions. If the bus driver and the passing driver do not agree where those transitions take place then we have the dangerous ambiguity.



A tip is a small gift of money. Letting someone go ahead of you is a small gift of time. I find the analogy precise.

Are we working with the same definition of courtesy?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Why not? Would you disagree with Roger's earlier comment regarding someone heading downhill slowing/stopping so that a heavy heading up the hill can maintain its momentum whilst passing an obstruction on its side of the road, even though the person heading downhill has right of way? Or what about if you're on the main carriageway and you see a heavy coming down the sliproad - if you slow down a little bit you'll open up enough of a gap to let the heavy merge in without having to slow at all, but if you maintain your present speed then the heavy will have no choice (other than running you off the road) but to slow or possibly even stop. I'd have no hesitation in giving it the room it needs to make the merge, the few seconds it costs me I can make up elsewhere in the journey without any difficulty, whereas the HGV is going to have to work a lot harder to regain any lost momentum.


But then, as I pointed out somewhere earlier in this thread, buses are something of a unique problem - they have to relinquish their position in the main traffic stream as and when required to serve their passengers, regardless of how difficult it will then be for them to rejoin the stream.

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Chris

Two people arriving at opposite sides of a mini roundabout or an unmarked crossroads at the same time - who has right of way if "give way to the right" is equally applicable to both?

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Chris

We all have to leave and re-enter traffic streams.

What make the bus unique?

That they have to do so more often on the average journey?

What if I'm delivering leaflets and decide that batches of 20 addresses are about right. I'd be stopping and rejoining the traffic stream even more often than a bus. Would I get special rights then?

I don't get it... I just don't get it.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The difference there is that the 'balance' in the positions makes them equal and similar. We can all work out such things by co-operation.

With the bus and the passing traffic the dynamic is quite different.

- The bus driver may be thinking - I have priority because I'm a bus indicating to pull out
- The passing driver may be thinking - I have priority because it's too late for me to give way safely

Because the thought processes are different for each driver in the example, the possibility of dangerous overlap is MUCH greater.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

That they have to do so not only at all the normal give way points that every vehicle faces, but also at various points on otherwise ordinary stretches of road at the beck and call of someone other than the driver. I don't have a telltale on my dashboard which lights up every few minutes and requires me to drop out of the stream in order to turn it off, or risk a bollocking from someone if I arrive at my destination with it still lit.



No, because you've made a conscious decision to drop out every 20 addresses, and you ought to have factored in the difficulty in resuming your journey after each stop into that decision.

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Chris

Ok. My boss says 40 addresses. Now?

Or are we in The Twilight Zone? ne ne ne naa ne ne ne naa...

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The role that the bus fulfils in the "society".

In the UK the society has adopted a system which makes use of bus lanes (in some locations), so they already get special consideration in that respect.

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p.s. I am still absolutely floored by Paul's death. May 2008 be the greatest ever for SafeSpeed. His spirit lives on.

Now we're getting to the crux. Maybe.

It's ideology. Buses are more important because somehow they are public transport while cars only transport the public.

We ARE in The Twilight Zone.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

In practice I have never seen this to be a problem.

This is how it works, as acted out thousands of times per day in the Netherlands:

IF IT'S NOT BUSY: bus waits for a suitable gap (it's not busy, don't forget) and then indicates and pulls out in a regular manner, no conflict.

IF IT'S BUSY: bus waits for small gap, indicates to pull out, and the approaching traffic will 99% of the time slow down a little so that the bus can safely pull out. The 1% of drivers who do not accomodate the bus, or even put their foot down will get a dirty look from the bus driver (and anyone else who notices) as they pass the bus. The next car will then almost invariably slow down for the bus (and feel pleased that they have been a good citizen and helped the bus). I have heard stories that bus drivers can report number plates of "naughty" drivers not giving way to the police, but whether this is true I do not know.

IF IT'S VERY BUSY: bus indicates to pull out, "marginal" drivers who were alongside or just behind the bus will proceed past, but after these 1 or 2 vehicles the next driver will invariably slow down (or even stop in very heavy traffic) to let the bus in.

Bear in mind
- buses here are considered important
- bus drivers do not generally abuse this rule or try to catch other people out
- a bus at a bus stop is very easy to spot
- the "inconvenience" caused to other vehicles by this system is very minor. They can easily be passed at the next stop.
- for the third time IT WORKS!

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p.s. I am still absolutely floored by Paul's death. May 2008 be the greatest ever for SafeSpeed. His spirit lives on.