Safe Speed Forums

[quote="JT
But the Police clearly stated that the driver's speed was not excessive, which they surely would not have said had they taken steps to warn drivers of the extreme hazard at that specific point in the road.[/quote]

Yes that seems an odd thing to say. 50mph on an icy road does seem excessive but we do not know if the ice was very localised therefore giving the impression that the speed was safe.

I still don't think it is fair to try to blame the Police for the accident.

Welsh police are out for their own personal gain, why do you think they have so many speed camaras in their BIG COUNTRY!!!!!!!!

A number of factors came together to make this accident more likely.

1. As stated a prior accident attended did not lead to preventative action.
2. The road policies that we have been following where simplistic blaming of speed as the number one cause has been to the detriment of accident reduction measures.
.....lack of road improvement investment with the continuation of single carriageway 60mph A roads with no central barrier.
.....lack of separation with a dedicated cycle route, cyclists must be given alternatives to riding on single carriageways as a policy. May take 30 years but a start has to be made.
..... safety education for drivers (where's the ice warnings? I hear plenty of "if you hit me at.....")
3. Choice by the cylists to ride in icy conditions and on a single carriageway 60mph A road.
4. The choice by the driver of their speed for the conditions and their reaction.

All played a factor, some more than others. But what is required is a focus on real prevention to reduce deaths by 50% within 10years. Cylists I read are now almost as likely to be killed as motorcyclists on rural roads.

Is it a good idea to go out for a drive in icy conditions? And anyway, a 60 mile training ride isn't a leisure ride.

Typically, cycling clubs will cancel a run if the roads are frozen, which leads me to believe that the roads were typically OK and that this ice was very localised.

This really is an awful tragedy. I can't see how trying to point some blame on a group of cyclists is being particularly helpful Peter.

I read that too. However, I would bet that the reasons for the deaths is very different. Bikers tend to kill themselves, but cyclists get killed by others.

I haven't read that, and I don't have figures at my fingertips to verify the claim. Where does it come from?

If it's correct, it is really quite extraordinay and deserves much investigation and attention. However, in the face of declining driving standards, it is unfortunately something that would have been predictable.

Russell. Nice to see you here.

[edited to correct 'fact' to 'face' Doh!]

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I think we have to be careful to differentiate between asking a question and apportioning blame. Did Peter actually say that the accident was the cyclists' fault?

If we don't ask questions to try to understand what happened (and why) we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again. I think we all agree that outcome would be a tragedy.

Sometimes even uncomfortable questions have to be asked if we are to really understand and improve road safety.

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Less Kodak, more Kojak.
In times of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

Bit more on the road conditions in the times -

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 35,00.html


"Gritters had been along the A547 the previous evening but they proved ineffective against the freezing conditions after a rain shower during the night. "

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

IIRC, I believe that it is about the same fatality rate for bikers whether motorised or not, somewhere in the region of 20 times the average fatality rate.
That covers all roads, and I have no figures to hand for rural roads.

I'll have a look when I get a chance.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

My point here was that while the comment made after the event described the route as dangerous (and also quoted a police survey in which this road was said to be in the top eleven most dangerous roads in the area) there was no warning in the events diary that riders need be experienced (other than that implied in it was a 60 mile ride).
Even the 14 year old boy who was unfortunately killed, must have been fairly experienced to be on a 60 mile ride. I therefore take the view that they accepted an "informed" risk, as do any riders who choose to share a road with other vehicles.
Here between Staveley and Windermere, the risk was considered great enough for the council to spend over one hundred thousand pounds on a separate cycle and foot path - which SOME cyclists choose not to use.

Elsewhere, some have seen fit to lay ALL the blame with the motorist, and have even gone so far as to imply that his driving was murderous. I do NOT hold to that opinion, even without the full facts!
I would suggest that if you visit the cycle club website, you will become more informed as to the abilities of the riders, and the purpose of these rides.
There has been no mention of the speed of the cyclists (which is not really relevant to the CAUSE of the accident) only that of the car, which appears to have been the lastest in a number of vehicles taken by surprised on that curve, one accident taking place earlier in the morning. However, if the conditions were so bad on the road surface, the cyclists too may have come to grief by their own hand had circumstances not intervened - as happens from time to time.

Thank you for your support Paul - I hope this has cleared up the matter to the satisfaction of the concerned poster.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Hold on there. Why do bikers kill themselves?

You need to think for yourself rather than use media stereotyping.

from the BMF report to the EU

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Speed camera policy Kills

The bit about cycle fatalities is from a campaign by Brake to make helmets compulsary -possibly in other papers , i found it in the times --

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/articl ... 18,00.html

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Stole my thunder Gizmo. A lot of bike deaths are S.M.I.D.S.Y.s

[/quote]

This is the opinion of m/cycle police officers that I hang around with. If I'm wrong then I'll apologise.

I note that no-one disagrees that cyclists get killed by other road users.

I think in certain locations, there is a higher incidence of bikers being injured/killed with no other vehicles involved.
IanH may be able to confirm, but I seem to recall that is the case in Cumbria, where we have large numbers of visiting bikers who misjudge bends etc. - hence the CSCP's dont crunch after lunch campaign.

I am sure that on commuter routes, and town centres that SMIDSY is a greater threat.
This is down to perceptions again, from personal viewpoints. It's all too easy to make sweeping statements without thinking of other scenarios.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Only by virtue of the fact that they almost always come off worst.

How about culpability
#No lights
#No reflective clothing
#Ignoring the highway code (shooting red lights, crossing etc)

This is not the case in this story but this winter I have seen numerous cases where cyclist are virtually invisible in the dark. Highly dangerous.

My daughter rides a scooter that is restricted to 30 mph. She has to have passed her compulsory basic training, wear a helmet. She also wears leather gloves, armoured jacket and boots. The bike has to have an MOT. A cyclist, many of which are capable of reaching 30mph can ride anything, just wear lycra and virtually ignore the highway code without any chance of reprimanded by the law.

Maybe this is a wake-up call for compulsory protective clothing for cyclists.

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Speed camera policy Kills

Obviously it is a leisure ride, as the objective is the ride itself. Therefore there is more discretion as to whether you do it or not, compared with say cycling to work.


I wasn't trying to point any blame at them at all. But all road users must realise if they go out in hazardous conditions that their risk of being involved in an accident, whether their own fault or not, is increased.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

new from the Beeb:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4596500.stm

Contains:

Police wanted crash road gritted

Police have said they asked for a north Wales road to be gritted an hour before a crash which killed four cyclists.

To my mind ths makes the Police position even worse. It confirms that they knew there was danger.

(still angry...)

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

in this case, and no doubt most cases where cyclists are killed by cars, how would that have helped exactly?

It depends on the accident. If all 4 victims were crushed under the car (doubtful) then protective would not help. But I suspect it is likely that some involved head injury and the pathetic bits of polystyrene that they wear, if the even had this, would not be much help.

My daughter also rides horses. Her hat is built to a protection standard that is far greater than any cycling "toy" lid.

What has happened was a tragic accident. But sometimes thats all it takes.....an accident.

At the moment we have very limited information. We will have to wait and see for the official information, port mortem.

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Speed camera policy Kills