Safe Speed Forums

It's good to be able for once to debate these issues without too much mud-slinging and personal attacks.

Just a few points to add to the discussions:

1. Public transport is good at some things – moving large quantities of people into and out of major towns and cities, and providing fast inter-city travel. It is not very good at meeting the demand for heterogenous, dispersed journey patterns, which is where private motor transport excels. Therefore it would make sense to concentrate investment and promotion on what public transport does well rather than seeing it as a universal panacea. Public and private transport should be complementary, not either/or alternatives.
   
   
2. By buying a car, you are effectively making a large fixed payment in return for reducing the marginal cost of transport, in comparison with other modes. Therefore it is a simple fact of life that possessing a car predisposes you to regarding it as the default transport choice.
   
   
3. While I certainly would not argue that the car is the answer to every transport question, I believe that overall it has been extremely beneficial to humanity and vastly expanded the employment and leisure opportunities available to people. The fact that people enthusiastically embrace car ownership in every country where it becomes financially and legaly possible suggests that they tend to agree. Therefore I find it objectionable when people seek to argue that pedal cycles or public transport are in some way morally superior to private motor transport. Surely as far as possible the aim of public policy should be to enable individual choice rather than to dictate how people should live their lives.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Thinking of it the other way around, I would like PT to be available when driving a car would just not be at all enjoyable or doing so would preclude fully enjoying something else, such as going out to the pub.

I do not often go 'out for a drive' for the fun of it, however I like to enjoy driving when I have to do so for transport.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

We seem to agree that public transport is really only a practical and economic option in larger towns and then principally for radial journeys at certain times of the day.

Interestingly, the most prized and expensive parking spaces are in town centres which seems to confound the above. Then there are the flats built in town centres by developers keen to exploit the Government's higher density housing initiatives. Those without allocated parking spaces are pretty much unsaleable and this is in places where PT is easily available.

What does this tell us? Well, the Government is trying to resist the will of the people. People want houses and flats with adequate parking. They want more roads built. I could go on but you get the point. Why don't they just accept that democracy should function and build the facilities that people want instead of pouring money into empty buses and trains run for "social reasons"? Get rid of the anti-car mentality.

Congestion is self regulating as per JTB's note:

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

I agree, but I’d also go further than this and ask whether we have become too used to dispersed journey patterns and whether we have been paying the true cost of such journey choices. If we haven’t then maybe it is a luxury we should start to appreciate more and use less.



I agree again. Interestingly, as the price of fuel, VED and insurance increases so the cost of actually buying the car in the first place decreases. Are we beginning to see a turning point in the way transport is paid for? Shouldn’t transport be “front end loaded”, I’m thinking of such enterprises as car clubs, and fuel, VED and insurance pay at pump ideas.




I seem to remember discussing this with Wildy a couple of years ago, I think we agreed to disagree in the end!

Certainly private motor vehicles have brought individual freedom and economic prosperity to many countries, and are seen as something to aspire to by most developing countries (look at China for proof of that!). But I’m not convinced in the long run we will be reaping as many benefits as we may like to think. The environmental and social costs are incredibly difficult to quantify. I once heard someone say that globally, motor vehicles have killed more people than all the wars that occurred in the same period. If true that is a scary statistic. The social aspect could be even more difficult to quantify if we look at the effect private motor transport has in segregating those who cannot drive, particularly in rural areas. Then there is the health aspect, we don’t really know how much cars have contributed to the sedentary lifestyle many folk in the developed world live. These lifestyles seem to be having significant costs to those who live them to the more extreme end of the spectrum. Unfortunately as obesity levels increase, this section is going to experience more and more problems and hence costs.



Fair enough, I try to avoid linking transport choices with morals wherever possible. It is never clear cut as to whether one choice is morally superior to another, and besides is there even a standard "moral scale" that we can even work to!



Yes, and no. Yes, up to the point that the individuals choices impact on other peoples lives.

I'm not sure that's true, I think it is useful in many areas including rural ones. These may not be economically practical, but they still serve a valuable function to society.



This is true to an extent. I suspect there are other reasons that should be taken into account though. I have worked with several such developments (with very restricted parking) which have been very popular because the transport choices have been considered and planned for before the development has been built/occupied. All it requires is adequate planning.



I disagree, there are just as many voices calling for less roads/traffic etc... as there are for more! I'm not convinced about the anti-car mentality either. But then I've explained that further up this thread. Besides building more roads doesn't work, they just get filled up.



Congestion is theoretically self limiting, but it causes many problems before it gets to this point, and because of the car-centric nature of the country we would suffer horribly (economically and socially) if we just left it to this. Far better to try and sort it out before it gets to that point.

I'm not sure it confounds your observation Malcolm, it merely confirms what public trasnport is up against i.e. poeple will choose their cars over PT even though it may incur parking charges and difficulty finding spaces. Making PT an attractive and viable option without disadvantaging the car are not, as I see it, options which are mutually exclusive. What after all would we want from PT to make us select it over our cars? For me it would have to:

Be cheaper to use
Get me to my destination in more or less the same time as my car would
Get me to the places I need to go without long detours; kind of tied in with the above
Not incur long waiting times for the next service
Be clean and safe

So:
How do you make PT cheaper without drawing the accusation that this form of transport is being 'subsidised' whilst the car isnt?
How do you get the service through to its destination, picking up and setting down passengers as it goes, without giving it a priority route through the traffic which would obviously come at the expense of the cars.
Waiting times would mean there would need to be very regular services
Clean and safe ain't too difficult if the will exists to do it.

My parents were an example of two folks who could quite easily have shared a car to travel to work in Gloucester, but each chose to use their own even though they worked 5 or so minutes walk from each other and started/finished work no more than 30 minutes apart.
Mum once complained about how bad the traffic was until I pointed out that it would be better if everyone who could share a car actually did so. She took the point
My point is, yes we should have the option to choose things like our mode of transport but that choice must be borne with an element of responsibility, and there is a limit to how much that choice can be accomodated in terms of service capacity. If we all choose to use our cars then we can't blame others (no matter how much more deserving we may think we are over those others) for making the same choice and getting in our way when we're trying to go about our business.

_________________
Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Yes, obviously the means of transport available to you affect the journeys you make. But I would argue that the availability of cars opens up a lot more possibilities to people, and without them people, on average, live more limited lives. Do we really want to go back to the days when you shopped at the corner shop, worked at the local factory and went to holiday on the train to Blackpool? And I know that's an exaggeration, but before mass car ownership (and argulably mass air travel too) most people had very limited horizons.


I often hear that bandied about, but you can't take it in isolation and say that without motor vehicles none of those people would have died. I've heard it said that in the days of horse-drawn vehicles, more people died in the UK in absolute terms each year in road accidents than do now, let alone per head of population. And even if roads were restricted to buses, coaches and commercial vehicles, an awful lot of people would still be killed in accidents. It may not be more than today, but I wouldn't like to say definitively that it wouldn't be.


And the problem is how you define that. But I don't think "I don't like that" is a legitimate reason, or "I don't think he should be allowed to do that" a legitimate motivation. The point about a society that values individual choice is that to a large extent everyone can have what they want so long as it doesn't involve the coercion of others.

I have no desire to ban or restrict pedal cycles or buses - but a lot of the advocates of those modes of transport seem to think their interests will be advanced only at the expense of private motor transport. I do not see transport policy as a zero-sum game.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Speaking personally, in the past few years I have (more by accident than design) become an independent contractor in the accountancy field.

Over seven years I have worked at 14 different locations. There was only one that I could have commuted to reasonably easily by public transport, although I didn't because I got free car parking anyway. About 5 could have been reached by public transport with some difficulty, although usually involving two changes and a journey time at least twice that of the car, plus a fair bit of walking. The remaining 8 couldn't practically have been reached by public transport at all.

The number of employment locations I can reach practically by car must be at least ten times as many as I can reach by public transport - which is a concrete example of how the car expands your horizons.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

_________________
Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

But we have "out of town" shopping malls, cinemas, "industrial centres/business/retail parks"... Bulk buying.. zero bus routes to these places and it's not practical to hump all this lot back home on the bus or bicycle either.

Internet shopping:scratchchin: Last time one of us tried this - she got out of date food and ended up having to dine out instead of cooking "chez eux" If I recall.. Jazz miaowed or rather roared - nay - blasted on her saxphone! a "never again" and hogs the "reduced for quickly sale counters at her local supermarkets"

Wimmin in this family

But the point is that the way the folk designed the towns and the places of work and places to shop.. plus the rather daft placing of kids into schools has created a desperate need for the car for many families. (My comment on the daft placing of kids in various schools is based on comments from my teacher sisters who did cut their eye teeth in roughish comps before landing jobs in decentish olde worlde grammar schools They found that some kids ended up travelling over three miles to an undersubscribed school because of rather illegal selection at the desired school more local to them.. but for which they did not meet the "league table criteria"

This is a separate rant in its own right.. but still peripheral to the topic as to why folk will stick with their cars .. come what costs may!

There's also the unwillingness of some employers to allow flexible working hours or even work from home - when this is actually quite feasible. Wildy did a heck of lot of work from home when expecting the last kitten (and why she was able to dip into the internet "for a toes up!" when waiting for a reply to her work input!

Obviously her work does require her presence at the lab or a supervision of the trial .. but again these trials take place at different bases and she has to travel to them all .. and pay for her parking just as I do.

But, all the same, I would suspect a lot of admin sales/finance/whatever work could be done from home via the internet on occasion and I am surprised that this is not encouraged more to be honest. Oh sure - we need the social input from work... but many office staff could still be office based for half the time in many, many cases these days and have the freedom of working at home - relatively stress free...


I think perhaps we need to address more our way of working and really USE the computer and the internet more productively, with economy and value for money services.

[quote+"peyote"]


Interesting how sometimes these schemes can be really successful and sometimes terrible. There's a hospital in Nottingham (coincidence, honestly) that has a very successful travel plan, including car parking charges related to salary, they have also introduced a very successful bus service too.
[/quote]

"Old Queen Bessie's"


We have relative based in Nottingham. She trained there and works as a junior medic on the ladder up now She once posted somewhere as "madeleine" and "Schneewittchen" She's Siegli's daughter


She still reports back to us that her parking fees are a chunk out of income regardless and that like the rest of us .. if you forget to renew when the wretched ticket expires.. an angle grinder in the boot comes in "jolly handy" It's true mate. If we forget to go to admin to buy a replacement when it expires and many of us do because we are too darned busy and think "Oh.. do it tomorrow!"

Only I am sure you know that "tomorrow either never comes or steals up with a surprise clamp" for so many young nurses and doctors.

{Peyote mate.. I pay a small fortune to park in the hospital car park .. as does Mike (brother-in-law) and my own brothers and sisters who are fellow medics. It's a lot of money in reality. Honestly. I've been paying this for years now and when you add this £400 to what I pay out on bus services per child to get to school..

To be honest .. it cost us LESS when our young sixth former drivers drove the brood to school with them .. and that's even paying their whopping insurances as under 25s..

We drop them off at the bus stop or at the school depending on time and travel arrangements on the day. If we take them .. we pay TWICE as we still pay the School for the service. Their School invoices us with the fees each term .. The fostered brood are different. We pay daily fares for them. We then fill in a form at the end to the foster or academic year and receive a partial re-imburse


Bus services? Again we have a postcode lottery on this. I happen to think York.. Canterbury. Chester.. Liverpool .. Oxford... are beacons to look up to here. I think Leeds also has a decent system per Mike (Krissi's husband whom you have "met" on line before .. (He's OK.. but like Andreas ....... you need a small dose )

Basically - where there's a park and ride scheme with good value for money... timely connections etc - there's not probs. Icing on the cake if they have facilities for the bicycles as well.




She's being tongue in cheek But seriously - we've ridden in a "bunch" and it's not that easy even when you KNOW what you're doing I worry over training and expertise in this skill. Because if IS a skill when all is said and done

You may recall (OK - "shudder" ) Krissi and Mike posting on C+ that they had ridden in China and felt extremely vulnerable in a "riding pack" like that.


But I have to admit that our average cycling commuter has not ridden in such condition and if and when you do .. it's a serious "wake-up call" I think about the only time I've seen Krissi looking "worried" as she did in the holiday video of the "Chinese adventure". (She was not keen on their food either apparently. She did not enjoy steamed snake apparently )







Only porters,nurses andjunior medics or any one else in a fairly basically paid job do not live near each other and thus cannot share the car


Many folk do not work at the same location. iT MAKES car sharing rather difficult.

They do not all work similar hours or shifts.. and again this can make carsharing inpractical for many.


I am thinking on a wider impact scale. We cannot assume neigbours work within same vicinity.. or bus routes work to meet actual bespoke working needs which means employers really do need to work on job specs - and not rely on the goodwill of unpaid overtime any more






But Peyote.. we are all subject to whims of ill-informed councillors (and I will be frank here.. they are not as astute as one could reasonably expect at times. Some are. Others .. I am afraid we have cause to SHUDDER )

Do they "listen"?

No. Because my sisters have been lobbying against the proposed toll tax for Manchester and found that whilst the councillors were not in actual favour. "they were bound to obey the local "WHIP" or else be disciplined.

Oh and do the sums here. If each worker pays £185 to park.. and we are taking thousands in reality.

Where does the cash go?

I doubt it will subsidise tram fares .

My parking fees do not subsidise the NHS or benefit patients to be blunt.

I do not believe it will be invested in any initiative other to ensure pensions get paid

I accept I have to pay to park my car in the car park. I do not accept this fee benefits the public or the planet.

I am a realist. I do not see the world in rose tinted glasses any more than I think it owes me a living

_________________
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Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Yes, I think you’re right. Availability of cars does lead to expanded physical horizons. Whether this leads to expanded mental and experience horizons is another debate! The point isn’t that we should return to the days of yore when we all lived in caves and wore sack cloth (the usual argument introduced to disprove my POV, something I’m not accusing you of). But when people can fly to New York for a weekend, or drive 100+ miles across the country to commute surely we’ve gone beyond the point of “expanded horizons”?

I couldn’t justify the above behaviour to myself, yet I’m happy to drive across Europe for a two week holiday in Spain, or hop on the train to Eastern Europe/Russia for a month holiday. I guess it boils down to how much you personally view travel to be worth, balancing the costs and benefits yourself.



Yep, this was exactly the kind of counter argument Wildy came out with. I can’t fault it, but I’m still not convinced the benefits of private motor vehicle use outweigh the costs. At least not the situation as it currently is. Hence our agreement to disagree!



Completely, I wouldn’t disagree with any of that. The trouble is excessive car use affects all of us.



Again, all true. Unfortunately it’s the zealots who get the media coverage. Sensible opposing points of view debated on back water websites* don’t generate sufficient interest in the Daily Mail/Express!

*Sorry, that sounds quite offensive. I can’t find the correct word, but I’m sure you understand what I’m getting at!

I think anyone who claims that PT, cycling, walking, car sharing, flexible working and homeworking will ever completely replace the private car is labouring under a dilussion. It doesn't mean that there aren't huge numbers of situations where car use can be reduced though!



Ah, well if they are unhappy with the way local councils run then the only thing they can do is vote them out, or stand as councillors themselves. If they have as much support against the toll-tax as suggested they should have no trouble getting sufficient support to be voted in!



From my experience of parking charges at hospitals, and admittedly I have only dealt with half a dozen, the funds generated are either used to fund the car parking management system or other travel plan measures. Either of these will support the hospital user, the public in the immeadiate vicinity, or the car park user themself- The hospital in Nottingham (Queen Bessie's is it?) introduced a security system with the funds raised. Cue massive reduction in car thefts, break ins etc... direct benefit to the car park user! I believe some ofthe funds also support the bus service which operates between the two sites, this in turn reduces congestion within the surrounding area, and reduces local pollution (the pics I saw of the buses looked relatively modern, i.e. not smokey, routemaster style ones!) both will benefit the locals and help hospital users access the site.

You've just got to look beyond you cynicism MM, not everything is as bad as it first appears!

(I'm impressed with how Peyote is taking the time to fully answer so many people's posts, and is saying when he thinks his "opponents" have a point rather than just dodging the bits that he can't argue with. He genuinely and honestly seems to want to advance the debate and come to an understanding, and he is completely open about his motives. It's a refreshing change to say the least.)

_________________
Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

Peyote, are you old enough to remember British Railways/British Rail? Nationalised (tick), not run for profit (tick) - and truly awful! People complain about today's railways, but compared with BR they are infinitely better than what went before. BR was vastly overstaffed, hugely inefficient, and seemed to be run solely for the benefit of its employees. The poor bloody rail traveller got a very bad deal indeed.

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Save a cow - eat a vegetarian

Hear, hear! How nice to have an intelligent debate rather than a mud-slinging session. Bravo, Peyote - I might not agree with all you say, but your arguments are thoughtful, provocative (in the right way) and refreshingly open-minded.

_________________
Save a cow - eat a vegetarian

We can still achieve much by encouraging more flex in the system



Ah, well if they are unhappy with the way local councils run then the only thing they can do is vote them out, or stand as councillors themselves. If they have as much support against the toll-tax as suggested they should have no trouble getting sufficient support to be voted in!

[/quote]

Jazz is considering. She has support here

Problem with the toll tax is a lot of councillors lured by cash prospect. They hit hard by ousting the main idiot out .. by sheer hard hitting door to door lobbyiing. These girls have families and a teaching career. It's a hard hit on their free time here. They have achieved a lot. Wide lateral thinkers ... astute and pleasant natured Not brotherly love. I know what folk tell me about those two "stalk on thestealth hunt felines" :lo: and to my sisters.




I think the "negative" floods "positives" and no one wins here. My patients complain.. My nurses.. juniors.. auxiliaries all complain to me and I pass these to "management"

I loan out my angle girnder to the youngsters

Our bus service does little to serve either staff of our "clients" some of whom are far too poorly and who rely on carers to transport them from A to B. If we move via bus or ambulance . we stil have to return to the DLA mobile as used by the carer. We end up paying blue badge spaces and ambulance or bus costs. We spend MORE and WASTE MORE here

I'd like to see a fixed fee per hour for all with a set affordable limit for long stay bereaved/seriously ill.

I'd like to see FREE parking for all more junior staff.

I can just about aborb costs to me .. and I do travel amongst the hospitals within my remit too. I can claim travel costs to a set limit anyway to offset............but again this costs the TAX PAYER and I am mindfull of this too,.

Peyote... I know we do not agree on some things..but may well agree on many others.

I regard you as a pal.. someone I can put an alternative opinion to ..with neither of us taking offence at a different point of view.

I think we have a decent regard and respect for each other and if we disagree at any point .. I do know that we still remain mutually respectful and friendly.

I genuinely have a liking and respect for your input here -even if we do disagree over the internet garden fence over this and that It would be a sad world if we all nodded an agreement without thoughts. Or considered "obedience to a politician" to be a duty. Hitler, Stalin.. Honecker.. Mugabe.. Saddam et al.. all have proven this to be inhumane to the point of repressive criminal.

We are not at this deranged point yet. But we could be if we did not exercise our right to debate.. lobby.. fight .. discusss...lobby again after discussion and valid points raised

Peyote..I am sure you see these concerns here and have some input of real reasoned value to make. I probably will agree with your views .. about 90%. We then have to try to get each other to agree on the 10% which we gnaw over here

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

I think the "negative" floods "positives" and no one wins here. My patients complain.. My nurses.. juniors.. auxiliaries all complain to me and I pass these to "management"

I loan out my angle girnder to the youngsters

Our bus service does little to serve either staff of our "clients" some of whom are far too poorly and who rely on carers to transport them from A to B. If we move via bus or ambulance . we stil have to return to the DLA mobile as used by the carer. We end up paying blue badge spaces and ambulance or bus costs. We spend MORE and WASTE MORE here

I'd like to see a fixed fee per hour for all with a set affordable limit for long stay bereaved/seriously ill.

I'd like to see FREE parking for all more junior staff.

I can just about aborb costs to me .. and I do travel amongst the hospitals within my remit too. I can claim travel costs to a set limit anyway to offset............but again this costs the TAX PAYER and I am mindfull of this too,.

Peyote... I know we do not agree on some things..but may well agree on many others.

I regard you as a pal.. someone I can put an alternative opinion to ..with neither of us taking offence at a different point of view.

I think we have a decent regard and respect for each other and if we disagree at any point .. I do know that we still remain mutually respectful and friendly.

I genuinely have a liking and respect for your input here -even if we do disagree over the internet garden fence over this and that It would be a sad world if we all nodded an agreement without thoughts. Or considered "obedience to a politician" to be a duty. Hitler, Stalin.. Honecker.. Mugabe.. Saddam et al.. all have proven this to be inhumane to the point of repressive criminal.

We are not at this deranged point yet. But we could be if we did not exercise our right to debate.. lobby.. fight .. discusss...lobby again after discussion and valid points raised

Peyote..I am sure you see these concerns here and have some input of real reasoned value to make. I probably will agree with your views .. about 90%. We then have to try to get each other to agree on the 10% which we gnaw over here

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Yeah, BR was dreadful, attracted much crticism and was the butt of many a joke about its sandwiches. But BR doesn't have to be the model for a nationalised, run for the benefit of the populace, rail system does it? There are plenty of examples of nationalised rail systems on the continent that are clean and efficient.

_________________
Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Aww, shucks you Guys!

Very true, not just the physical system either. We need to encourage behaviour change, the human system needs altering as much as the physical network does



I wish them all the best in their political careers! Even as a lobbying force rather than as Councillors proper they can exert power. Espescially with a significant weight of support behind them.




I always find it really disappointing when one hospital I work with can produce so much and yet another one can fail so badly at what they try to do. So much depends on the support of senior management in these situations. It sounds like you’ve ended up in one of the dodgy ones I’m afraid. You have my sympathies if not my agreement on your suggested parking strategies! Ever thought about transferring to Nottingham, or I can recommend one or two down here in the SE if you want?!



Cheers for your words MM, generally they’re reciprocated. Though I have to be in the right frame of mind to figure out much of what you post!