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johnsher
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:45 
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Nemesis wrote:
if tractors and buses were petrol-powered would you drive a diesel so as to avoid those awful petrol cars that sound like buses? :D

does a 2cv sound like a ferrari?
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Nemesis
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:58 
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johnsher wrote:
Nemesis wrote:
if tractors and buses were petrol-powered would you drive a diesel so as to avoid those awful petrol cars that sound like buses? :D

does a 2cv sound like a ferrari?


Well no, a Ferrari is more refined. But in that case, a modern diesel car is far more refined than a bus. :)

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stackmonkey
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 13:34 
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the sensible majority wrote:
the intellectual capaity to enjoy litrature.


:rotfl:

They do at least have the ability at spell "intellectual capacity to enjoy literature".

Don't forget that two of the three are actually writers first and presenters second; and whether or not you like their writing, they do at least spell -check it before publishing. :P
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johnsher
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 13:39 
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Nemesis wrote:
Well no, a Ferrari is more refined. But in that case, a modern diesel car is far more refined than a bus. :)

more refined maybe but have you ever heard a diesel engine with a pleasant soundtrack?
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Nemesis
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 19:30 
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johnsher wrote:
Nemesis wrote:
Well no, a Ferrari is more refined. But in that case, a modern diesel car is far more refined than a bus. :)

more refined maybe but have you ever heard a diesel engine with a pleasant soundtrack?


OK OK I admit it, diesels don't sound as good as petrols. Although the traditional 'diesel-knock' is really only noticeable on cold starts for a minute or two on modern engines. I just think diesels still get a bit on unjustified criticism because of a 20 year old legacy. It always used to be a choice between diesel if you wanted economy and petrol if you want to enjoy driving :) But these days the distinction is much more blurred

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Pete317
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 19:48 
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Nemesis wrote:
It always used to be a choice between diesel if you wanted economy and petrol if you want to enjoy driving :) But these days the distinction is much more blurred


Diesel's economy is really artificial - created by the taxing structure. Pound for pound, diesel has about the same calorific value as petrol but, because it's a denser fuel, a gallon of diesel takes you further than a gallon of petrol. The only real advantage of diesel is that you can get away with a smaller tank.
I prefer driving a run-of-the-mill diesel to a run-of-the-mill petrol though - you get a lot more bottom-end torque. However, the diesel runs out of steam pretty sharply at higher revs, so, for example, dropping a gear to overtake sometimes works against you.
However, a large or turbocharged petrol engine wins hands down for me.

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Nemesis
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 20:24 
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Pete317 wrote:
Diesel's economy is really artificial - created by the taxing structure. Pound for pound, diesel has about the same calorific value as petrol but, because it's a denser fuel, a gallon of diesel takes you further than a gallon of petrol. The only real advantage of diesel is that you can get away with a smaller tank.
I prefer driving a run-of-the-mill diesel to a run-of-the-mill petrol though - you get a lot more bottom-end torque. However, the diesel runs out of steam pretty sharply at higher revs, so, for example, dropping a gear to overtake sometimes works against you.
However, a large or turbocharged petrol engine wins hands down for me.


My Pug 406 with it's 70 litre tank means I get about 700 miles out of a tank - very useful given that I have a daily commute of about 120 miles. What I don't understand is why diesel fuel costs more than petrol - that does offset the economical value slightly. For once it's not the government as duty rates on uleaded and diesel are the same (47.9p/l I think). Although the extra £10 on VED the government imposes on diesels doesn't make sense - I thought lower CO2 emissions meant lower VED :?

I will admit working out the best rev range, when and where the turbo kicks in does take a bit of getting used to - a lot more than on a petrol. Once used to it though I have no probs overtaking safely on a NSL SC :)

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Pete317
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 21:43 
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Nemesis wrote:
What I don't understand is why diesel fuel costs more than petrol


It costs less per pound (sorry, Kg)

Would you expect to pay the same for a cubic foot of coal as you do for a cubic foot of gas, for argument's sake?

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Nemesis
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 22:07 
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Pete317 wrote:
Nemesis wrote:
What I don't understand is why diesel fuel costs more than petrol


It costs less per pound (sorry, Kg)

Would you expect to pay the same for a cubic foot of coal as you do for a cubic foot of gas, for argument's sake?


Yeah but it's sold by volume, not density. It's cheaper than petrol in virtually every other country. It was cheaper here until about 10 years ago. And it's cheaper to produce - isn't diesel a by-product of petrol production?

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Pete317
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 22:27 
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The closest explanation I can find is from here:

Quote:
# The problem presented to refiners by the gasoline/diesel tug-of-war is that gasoline and diesel have distinctly different product characteristics. Thus, a refiner will invest in a different combination of downstream units depending on which of the two he sees as the fuel of the future.
# If the refiner guesses wrong, it has a major impact on the price differential between the two products. For example, European refiners invested for gasoline, but dieselization produced a gasoline surplus. This forced the refiners to discount the price for their gasoline, so that the cost of moving the surplus to an overseas market could be recovered. This discounting caused the price of gasoline relative to that of diesel to be much lower than expected, undermining the value of the refiners’ gasoline-oriented investments.

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Capri2.8i
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 19:10 
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Nemesis wrote:
What I don't understand is why diesel fuel costs more than petrol - that does offset the economical value slightly.


You might find this thread interesting, it was debated in some detail awhile back :)

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2910
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Mole
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 22:49 
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johnsher wrote:
Capri2.8i wrote:
I refuse to drive something that sounds like a bus.

it's not just the tractor noises, it's the whole limited rev range, turbo lag package that gets me. It might be fine if you spend your days stuck in traffic in London but once I get to the twisty stuff or onto a track I want the car to sing - and if I was worried about mpg I'd buy a girl's car. :twisted: :stirthepot:


Audi have just absolutely wiped the floor with all the petrol opposition at Spa - using a diesel! I believe it was nealy a second a lap quicker than the next car!

I think diesels will take over from petrols in the next 10 years (if something altogether different doesn't come along!). The latest Euro IV diesels are cleaner than LPG (never mind petrol!) and particulate filters are starting to make the black smoke when you boot them a thing of the past. There's so much more scope for evolution of the diesel than there is with the petrol engine that many manufacturers are diverting the bulk of their engine research budgets in that direction.

(can't argue about them sounding crap though!)
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handy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 18:49 
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Has Top Gear "Jumped the Shark"?


based on last nights show, I should say that's a definite yes.

For the first time ever, I actually switched it off halfway through, that whole road building thing was even more painful to watch than their drivetime radio setup.

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r11co
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 19:14 
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Gotta admit that last night's show seemed a bit ropey and not as slick as is in the past, but then they did have to throw away most of the scripts and start again considering the series was supposed to start airing in October. All production halted for three month solid, meaning a lot of outside footage fell out of date.
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SigmaMotion
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 23:34 
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Needed more cars (as a previous poster mentioned). Don't get me wrong, the new XK is a fully paid up looker IMHO but it needed more cars......599 Fiorano perhaps????

Having said that, Brother Hammond is one lucky, lucky man.

Good to see him back.

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civil engineer
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:03 
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Great show.

Really like it and will continue o, one of the very few programmes that I actually look forward to. HAs it peaked? maybe but if so then only just.

As for 5th gear being better.....well maybe we should count ourselves lucky that we can watch both if we want to.

Personally I love all things motoring, from motor sport through mechanics to supercars and general banter. I can't imagine I'd be quite so keen on watching TG on a sunday if it was a parade of supermini road tests.
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