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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 17:38 
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In Gear wrote:
So ... as I know cyclists post to this site and a lot more lurk (and we'd welcome their input - especially to our Cycling Forum) - perhaps you could do the folllowing if you are a victim of this aggressive and anti-social and criminal behaviour

1. Try to get the reg numbers

2. Report it your local police. We really do need to know about this - and even if you do not get the reg numbers ... very likely the person travels on the road in question regularly and we can patrol to try to cop 'em at it. Believe it or not - we are prepared to help - you pay us to do so in any case.
:wink:


been there, done that....
(aggressive driving, verbal & deliberate car-bike contact, 6 witnesses)

not actually convinced they did anything, certainly didn't phone to update me as they said they would.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 17:54 
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johnsher wrote:
In Gear wrote:
... not had this occur to me personally when out riding my bike ...nor has anyone around here reported this kind of road rage and bullying.

that's because you're in a nice rural part of the country where there's no traffic. Try riding in a big city.


I used to ride around London as a raw recruit .. and in Manchester when based there as :bib: and in my student days there - several years ago - (gulp.. swallow .. gulp.... checks mirror on wall ... phew! neither bald nor grey yet... :twisted: ) - and we do have some built-up areas in the County. I have also used my bike up in Newcastle a couple of times... and maybe it's Northern common sense and courtesy or a generally slower pace of life . ... or it's happening and people fail to report it to us.

john wrote:
In Gear wrote:
2. Report it your local police.

yeah, like that works...

"what do you want us to do?"
"well, you could just have a friendly chat to him to let him know that running cyclists off the road isn't very nice."


I rather think we would notify quite politely that we had received a complaint ... assuming not a chav in an unregistered throwaway - in which case .. we store and look out for..

Your complaints form part of our "intelligence" - we need this to nail the bad guys out there. If we get a lot of complaints giving similar descriptions - we certainly would be taking action and perhaps the reason why these people get away with as much as they appear to do is because of an apathy and a bad press (partially the result of far too many scameras) which leads the public to believe we are not interested - when in fact... tis the opposite... :roll:

Quote:
"that would be infringing his civil liberties"
"what, you mean me getting killed isn't an invasion of mine?"
"sorry sir but if you want us to do anything you'll have to fill in these forms"


Ah.... those forms ... :censored: We get you to fill them in to cut our paperwork down a bit. In any case - we have to get a signed official complaint - so that we can send you another form to fill in as a "victim of crime" later on....


Besides ... I work with the most un-peecee of forces - we have a sense of the ol' common up North t that knows! (Unless you are with GMP... :roll: where your descriptions are fine so long as you do not describe the person as as "fat" . :wink:

Quote:
so you fill the bloody forms in for the 100th time and then a month later you get a letter back saying

"were not doing anything because there's no proof so bugger off. When you get killed we might find the time to investigate."


Nah .. that's the "Victim of Crime" one! You fill that one in and get counselling for free... :wink:

Seriously John - we do come up against the "their word against yours" - but they also know we could be keeping an eye out for repeats of this behaviour - so just reporting it in may have the required effect regardless.

Besides - if we get a number of complaints - tells us something is wrong and we have more than one word agaisnt theirs if all reports point to the same car. After all - guy does it to one... likely to get his kicks by repeat performances.


And yet again - Ern gives some sound advice. :bow:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 18:01 
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ed_m wrote:
In Gear wrote:
So ... as I know cyclists post to this site and a lot more lurk (and we'd welcome their input - especially to our Cycling Forum) - perhaps you could do the folllowing if you are a victim of this aggressive and anti-social and criminal behaviour

1. Try to get the reg numbers

2. Report it your local police. We really do need to know about this - and even if you do not get the reg numbers ... very likely the person travels on the road in question regularly and we can patrol to try to cop 'em at it. Believe it or not - we are prepared to help - you pay us to do so in any case.
:wink:



been there, done that....
(aggressive driving, verbal & deliberate car-bike contact, 6 witnesses)

not actually convinced they did anything, certainly didn't phone to update me as they said they would.


How long ago? If fairly recent - contact the officer who attended and took your initial statements for an update as you have half a dozen witnesses. Have any of these witnesses been asked to give their statements and signed them?

Could be person was in a throwaways and they have been unable to trace... this is a fairly common cul-de-sac for us.

Currently . - we are being instructed to target anti-social behaviour as a priority - so do report any of this

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 18:27 
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In Gear wrote:
we do come up against the "their word against yours"

oh I fully understand that, that's why I ask them just to have a quiet word rather than attempting to press any charges. The added bonus would be that a quiet word would probably have a lot of them incriminating themselves.
Unfortunately the local division seems to prefer just ignoring it until something far worse happens.
I don't suppose you'd consider moving down here and sorting them out?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 18:37 
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johnsher wrote:
In Gear wrote:
we do come up against the "their word against yours"

oh I fully understand that, that's why I ask them just to have a quiet word rather than attempting to press any charges. The added bonus would be that a quiet word would probably have a lot of them incriminating themselves.
Unfortunately the local division seems to prefer just ignoring it until something far worse happens.
I don't suppose you'd consider moving down here and sorting them out?


I'd consider writing to your CC and all officers above Inspector levels over this. Of course we have to prioritise according to urgency - but I would consider any deliberate attempt to cause harm to another person of importance sufficient to place it in the top list of priorities to deal with.

Case of how we deploy and manage staff as well... why I am against large super forces...even though we were one of the few forces who actually obeyed the darned rules on proposed merger plans.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 20:59 
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In Gear wrote:
How long ago? If fairly recent - contact the officer who attended and took your initial statements for an update as you have half a dozen witnesses. Have any of these witnesses been asked to give their statements and signed them?

Could be person was in a throwaways and they have been unable to trace... this is a fairly common cul-de-sac for us.

Currently . - we are being instructed to target anti-social behaviour as a priority - so do report any of this


oh yonks ago now... unfortunately i have better things to do than chase them up.

my statement was taken, friend also gave one (at a different station :roll: ), the plod that spoke to me (with hapless new recruit in tow) said they were going to 'have a word' .. nohing more than that. it was a company car... custom plate... and a phaeton which are also pretty rare... i can still remember the reg.

..maybe an unfortunate one off... maybe they do it to everyone, dunno.
sadly doesn't give any confidence that reporting it has any effect or makes us any safer.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 16:19 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/5102806.stm

Cycle crash driver's tyres charge

The cyclists were on a 60-mile Sunday ride when they were killed
The driver of a car which struck a group of cyclists, killing four of them, has been charged with having three defective tyres.


There was always going to be some very good reason why of the thousands of cars which travelled along this supposedly 'icy' road that day, only the car involved in the killing of these cyclists and one other skidded off the road...

So, three defective tyres. What will the penalty be? Nine points maximum (3 for each tyre) and a £200 fine perhaps?

So much for those on here who argued that the driver could have done nothing to avoid this crash. Not driving a lethally defective car at too high a speed perhaps?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 16:24 
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P.s.

One must also wonder how the idiot of a police officer who claimed that this crash was due to the condition of the road surface (and saying so whilst his officers were still taking measurements at the scene of the crash) could have overlooked the fact that the car involved had three defective tyres. A demotion (at least) would seem to be in order.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 16:29 
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It's a shame the report doesn't say in what way the tyres were defective.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 16:52 
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I smell another Police 'deflection' or arse covering tactic. Remember how we heard that officers had a chance to warn motorists of dangerous conditions, but didn't?

My God, how did trust in the Police sink so low?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 16:55 
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I saw the report and thought back to the incident, (which was one of the reasons I first came to this site).

The 'nothing the driver could do' comments annoyed me then.
Now they make my blood boil


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 17:09 
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B cyclist wrote:
The 'nothing the driver could do' comments annoyed me then.
Now they make my blood boil


Innocent until proven guilty remember?

I have massive doubts that the tyres will prove to be a causal element in the crash development. Hell - I saw someone on TV saying it was so slippery (with ice) that they could hardly stand up. With the best tyres in the world or the worst tyres in the world there still wouldn't be sufficient grip in such conditions.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 17:20 
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I also smell a rat because I can’t believe it has taken nearly six months for the police to come up with defective tyres. If they where that defective surely it would have come out at the time of the accident?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 17:23 
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Hard to see how "defective" tyres could possibly reduce grip on an icy road, unless perhaps they were over-inflated?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 17:24 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
With the best tyres in the world or the worst tyres in the world there still wouldn't be sufficient grip in such conditions.

all the more reason to push stability control systems into lower-end vehicles.
I did a course at Prodrive last week and spent a few hours on their black-ice simulation strip. No problem at all driving down it with DSC on. Even trying to provoke the car into slides proved rather difficult until it was switched off.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 17:47 
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What would you infer about a driver of a car with three defective tyres? That they always checked that their car was road-worthy before they set out? That they took their holding of a car driving licence seriously and with considerable responsibility?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 17:54 
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B cyclist wrote:
What would you infer about a driver of a car with three defective tyres?

nothing until we're actually told what the defect is.

What worries me more is that there are 'drivers' out there who can lose control, slide to the wrong side of the road, hit a fence and then somehow end up off the other side side of the road. Surely braking is one of the basics?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 23:33 
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B cyclist wrote:
What would you infer about a driver of a car with three defective tyres? That they always checked that their car was road-worthy before they set out? That they took their holding of a car driving licence seriously and with considerable responsibility?


Let's say the defect was tread depth. There's very little practical difference between 1.7mm (legal) and 1.5mm (illegal). You can't draw any conclusions about the driver because of that any more than you can between 29mph and 31mph in a 30mph zone.

Possibly the police are using the tyre defect as a proxy to bring a charge because they can't prove a DWDCA or DD offence - and that may be justified. But not necessarily because of the tyres - because of the general manner of driving.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 02:07 
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johnsher wrote:
B cyclist wrote:
What would you infer about a driver of a car with three defective tyres?

nothing until we're actually told what the defect is.


Quite. And in normal cases (including this case) nothing until a court hears the evidence and makes a judgment.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 19:36 
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BBC News

Quote:
Cyclists inquest delay criticised

Image
The cyclists pictured clockwise:
Thomas Harland, Wayne Wilkes,
Maurice Broadbent, Dave Horrocks

A coroner has criticised delays which he says prevent him holding an inquest into the deaths of four cyclists in a crash with a car almost a year ago.

Rhyl Cycling Club members Thomas Harland, 14, Maurice Broadbent, 61, Dave Horrocks, 55, and Wayne Wilkes, 42, died near Abergele on 8 January.

The hearing in Llandudno was told there was a delay of months in supplying gritting records to the police.

North-east Wales coroner John Hughes adjourned the hearing until February.

"Almost one year on and we owe it to the families to deal with it as expediently as possible," said Mr Hughes.

He said he had received a hand-delivered file on the case only last week.

The file - which is still incomplete, the hearing was told - already contains 217 statements.

Mr Hughes said justice delayed was justice denied and that it had to be a transparent investigation.

But he said that from the perspective of the families the delays might suggest a cover-up.

David Hill, a solicitor acting for North Wales Police, gave a detailed chronological account of the way information had been received and treated by the police.

'Profound wish'

Police had first asked for Conwy Council road gritting records in January and the authority supplied them to its solicitor later that month, but the police did not get them until June, the hearing heard.

It also emerged that three key witness statements from council employees had still not been taken.

Mr Hughes said it was his "profound wish" that matters could be moved on for the sake of the families.

"Sight has been lost of the grieving families and it seems the matter has been looked at from the council's perspective - I think the interest of the grieving family is paramount," said the coroner.

The cyclists were on a 60-mile trip between Great Orme and Llanrwst

Mr Hughes told Tim Horlock, QC, on behalf of the council, that he could not understand why information had not been passed on at an earlier stage.

Mr Horlock said it was because time had been needed to consider the information in the documents they had.

The coroner told the police solicitor there needed to be more communication between the force and his office.

He put into force his coroner's powers to direct the council to make available witnesses for interview within 28 days, with a similar directive to another person also involved, but who had now left the council's employment.

This directive could have been issued at an earlier date if his office had been approached by the police, he said.

North Wales Police and Conwy Council would not comment ahead of the inquest.


Sounds like a cover-up to me.

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