Safe Speed Forums

on the bbc news a policeman stated that the car was traveling at a speed not suitable for the conditions, he did however also state that that this time the police did not believe the car was traveling over the speed limit

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now retired

BBC video on this link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_ ... 93380.stm#
contains: "Police say there was no indication to suggest that the car was travelling at excessive speed"

I very sorry to say that the Police appear to have forgotton what excessive speed is, and equally sorry to see that the BBC saw fit to report the issue as if not speeding means that drivers are blameless. (I'm not suggesting that this driver wasn't blameless, but 'not speeding' isn't the judgement point)

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

According to the Met Office, conditions were dry.
Presumably THIS part of the road was not, and ice had formed on the surface. It happens all the time in places around here, where the topography chanels weather phenomenon into very local areas.


Presumably the kink prevented a clear view of the change in the road surface. In Staveley last week, I encountered black ice on a bend, which I know had been gritted. However, I later realised that cars had been parked on the bend earlier, which when removed, exposed a stretch of road which had NOT been reached by the grit.



I suppose it is reasonable to say that since it was KNOWN to be dangerous, that the cyclists took their life in their hands when choosing this route. There is nothing on their website's events diary to indicate this however! They simply invited everybody to take part, without indicating that any form of risk, or degree of skill level was appropriate.

It's far too early to apportion blame, we know too little about the other accident circumstances, or whether the driver was local, or a stranger to the road.

this picture shows no signs of dampness at the far side where the car ended up, while the double white lines and hatching show a known hazard.
In addition, the tarmac on the near side of the end of the double white lines looks to be of a differrent nature!
Finally, I note the policemen at the scene are not wearing hats - yet in the recent cold weather here, a hat was an essential form of protection from the cold. If it WAS -1.4 degrees, then it would have appeared to have warmed up considerably by the time this photograph was taken. That does NOT preclude ice on the road, it merely means that there might not have been any prior indication of it.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

a chilling image.

A very sad day.

2 things spring to mind on seeing that picture. 1 there are no visible skid marks and 2 for the car to end up where it is the driver can't have been using the brakes.

Makes me angry, not sad. Angry that we have a twisted road safety policy. Angry that they support that policy with bad stats and lies.

But most of all angry that (as it appears right now) the Police knew that there was a problem and left it.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Well the video shows more of the bend than the photograph, but THISis the more chilling aspect for me.

So the Met office report was incorrect when it described the weather as "dry", and presumably the road had NOT been gritted, NOR had anyone seen fit to get it gritted, despite the earlier incident. This needs more information before ANYONE is blamed, since this may well not have been the only place which was icy, and we need to hear the precise speed estimated for the vehicle.

It'll make a change from investigating comments made by Anne Robinson about the Welsh

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

There wouldn't be any marks if he was skating on ice. Brake or no brake.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I think you should all take a look at the video - it's on a link from THISpage.

It shows a LOT more of the scene, including policemen with wooly hats on.
It just shows me that we need full information before we comment, and that the guy on the Guardian Talk page needs stringing up for the general good of the public!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

to start with but he wasn't on ice the whole way around.

Edited to delete and relocate the contents of earlier similar (but thankfully far less consequential) seies of accidents that may have parallels - http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... 1222#61222 for those interested.

Johnsher, I suggest you take a look at the video, and then make more comments when the full fact are known - then you wont make a mistake like I did in mentioning that the policemen in the photo were not wearing hats.
In the video, they are they ONLY ones not wearing hats!!
If it rained then froze, then the WHOLE of the road surface could have been icy.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

if that were case wouldn't more cars have lost control? Also how likely are cyclists to stay up on ice?


I'm looking to learn from this not trying to blame anyone for anything.
What I'm thinking is that had the driver lost control, realised he had no hope of regaining control and just jumped on the brakes then maybe the outcome might have been slightly different. Thoughts?

I think the road surface, which is different where the car has come FROM has disguised the ice, and since from the position of the bikes has them just venturing onto that, I suspect they might well have been entering trouble themselves.
They also seem to have been well bunched up, not riding in twos as was stated early on elsewhere, and since there would appear to be nothing else to have hit other than the wall, all that damage on the Toyota was done by either the cyclists or the wall, either way, it looks like a 360 degree spin - but I might well be proved wrong when the full facts emerge.
However, what I think is based on what is really hearsay and very little reliable evidence.
Even in the video, the reporter says they were on a 50 mile ride, while their website diary says 60 - and when I checked a map, the route along the A547 is not 60 miles, so there must be another element to that.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

There are certainly 'things' that drivers can do at all stages of all skids. But it's unlikely to be the 'right' thing unless the degree of training has built an 'instinctive' (lizard brain) response.

With ABS equipped vehicles 'freezing' on the brake pedal is pretty good. You retain steering control and lose speed as quick as is possible or thereabouts.

Without ABS you can plant the brake if you are travelling in a favourable direction (irrespective of yaw attitude) and guarantee a more-or-less straight line (until you hit something). This can allow you to choose what to hit.

But for most drivers, once a skid has started there's not a great deal that they are equipped for. I'd go as far as to say that actions and inactions are a pretty random element. It might be a bad idea to let go of everything and wait for it all to stop, but that's not uncommon. It's also a bad idea to freeze on non-abs brakes from an early stage, but that's common too.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

hmmm hasnt the car come from behind the camera in most of those shots.
the cyclists were clearly on the right of the road from that view and the car is described as being coming the other way on a left hander before losing control, bouncing off a wall and rebounding.

so i think the change in surface you can see from that angle a bit the car hadn't yet encountered...

aside from that it looks like a gentle, very open left hander.. i'd be surprised if i wouldn't be doing 60 round it in good conditions all things being equal.

at 50mph.... with the cyclists only a lane away?... i cant see any reflexes avoiding hitting them if a patch of ice knocks you suddenly from understeer to oversteer.

I'd suggest that a more likely pattern would have started rather earlier and culminated in spinning across the road. Quite often the road crossing event might be a secondary skid. But of course I'm guessing.

If it was direct, as you suggest then you're right. Very little time and very little opportunity.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

It is just possible that, realising one was losing it, one could deliberately go off in front of the cyclists (sacrificing the car on the opposite side of the road rather than trying to keep the car on the tarmac). Easy with 20/20 hindsight, but I'd like to think I had the .. what's the word... to take my chances in a bad "off" rather than wipe out an entourage of cyclists - assuming that is I had that choice.