Safe Speed Forums

Yet more topical drift


I'd agree with you there Mole, its difficult to heel and toe in Mrs Zippo's Yaris without noticeably affecting the
brakes, if I haven't driven it for a while first time I have to brake, it usually comes as a bit of a shock how sensitive the brakes are, far to light IMO.

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You only need two tools - WD40 and duct tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD40. If it moves and it shouldn't, use duct tape. :0)

Soz about the drift Zipps

No no Malcolm, not at all. I can, and have, got used to that. It’s purely about the 2 position woolliness of the lever and a cancel function which is hard to reliably find.


Because the one is not a problem and anyone can soon get used to what side it is on the steering wheel. The feel of it and, as I say, the lack of feedback and difficulty in cancelling it is what I have a problem with. It’s very easy to push it too much and instead of cancelling the operation you start it on the opposite indicator instead. Surely others here apart from me and Grabs have seen this or done it?

So then you hit it back to some central point again to cancel the thing you didn’t want to do in the first place, (which isn’t a physical thing but electronic sensor fed to a PIC), and instead of cancelling, it has gone from indicating right to left to right again and left again until you finally get the right amount of touch or flick to cancel it.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Any chance of splitting this thread into "electric park brakes" & "pointless features" ?

Just because something uses a PIC doesn't mean that it is a) cheap and b) crap. I have designed several very sophisticated and extremely reliable controllers for communications lasers using PICs. And they were not cheap.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Factually incorrect Dave. They can be useful and they are useful, I use them in my profession too, but they ARE "a) cheap" and that's why they ARE used/favoured. You're going to tell me I'm wrong now aren't you?

They are CHEAP to produce and any opportunity to use them, anywhere, is being used in today's manufacturing and you know it! It's not because it is necessarily better, it's because it's cheap!

They are cost effective cheap crap, as opposed to more functional in the real world. I am not disagreeing with you, as such. I know how good and useful they are or can be in the right place, and how someone thinks "I can make a toaster or toothbrush better using one, working for PICs R Us".

But I, and most people, don't need a science degree to differentiate between good and crap. In fact, I believe you can get a good impartial opinion from 'the man/woman on the street' who just tries something and thinks it's good or it's crap. But they are not asked before implementation of this cheap crap.

The opinion of the seller trying to tell me how much "whiter my shirts can be and how he don't smoke the same cigarettes as me" is what overrides $omethin£ much more important these days i.e - PRACTICALITY FIRST!

That is my opinion and, more pertinent in my world and experience, the more modern vehicles I drive, (which is considerable), the more I realise what the true imperative is. Cheap crap, built to a price!

I speak as I find and in my world if it looks like a turd, smells like a turd and feels like a turd I personally call it a turd! I don't want to be told that it is entirely possible to pick it up from the clean end.

Did I go off on one again?

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Yes. I didn't say that PICs were not cheap, I said that my controller was not cheap. In fact it cost several thousand dollars so my choice of a PIC was not motivated by saving a few pennies.


You are putting the cart before the horse, Tone. PICs are cheap because they are used in enormous quantities not the other way round. And they are used so much for the same reason that I chose them for my designs: readily available, versatile, easy to program, well documented, huge user support. And such volume sales inevitably reduces the price


I am not denying that there are a lot of crap products containing PICs. But that doesn't implicate the PIC. Second rate engineers and programmers can design crap using the most expensive processors on the market. And they do

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Ok then, I'm glad we cleared that up.

It’s just that in an effort to cut costs ‘they’ are fobbing ‘us’ off with something which is worse under the guise of it being better when it isn’t. Just like my other bugbear with cars today, speedometers moving towards cheap LCD junk instead of a better but more expensive analogue needle type. Some people say they prefer the digital LCD type but I certainly don’t and never will. There is no doubt in my mind why they have moved, are moving, towards them and it isn’t because they are better.

The general public have been brainwashed into thinking if it’s digital it always has to be better. Well it isn’t always better. Here’s something I know you Dave and some others will relate to. I bet a million pounds you own a good AVO? (I hope you do because I haven’t got a million pounds). They’re great aren’t they? Fluke made a digital one with a pretend LCD bar to act like a needle, but it was hideous. In my day, no-one liked them and it was always a fight to get hold of a good AVO meter, or the Bradley.

I’m always very suspicious of changes which are not for the better and electric handbrakes are, in my view, another case of fixing something which wasn’t broken. (Disabled driver issue aside). I feel like smashing our Octavia with a sledgehammer sometimes because instead of using a proper catch for the boot it has some magnetic catch, (controlled by PIC), and even when it’s open you are sometimes fooled into thinking it’s still closed because it has no feel to it. It’s as if the electro-magnet hasn’t been fully turned off but because there’s no feel to it you often pull it when it’s still closed and nearly tear your tendons off the bone. More cheap junk! You have to turn a key twice in the clockwise direction to unlock it but you can’t hear anything and the locking mechanism is sloppy and gives you no feedback to what’s happening or happened.

I’ll get off my soapbox now sorry. And sorry if I sounded angry

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Mass produced cars have always been built down to a price with resultant crappy stuff. The only change is that these days the crap is implemented digitally.

Personally I prefer the pseudo-analog digital displays - bargraphs and such. But when I compare the analogue speedometer on my 1990 golf - oscillatieswildly 5mph either way, and that is when you can see it because the incandescent backlighting failed and is almost impossible to replace ; with the digital LCD display on my wife's Honda - brightness adjust according to conditions, well damped, consistent and repeatable 3mph error; I know which I prefer.

. I haven't used an analogue meter, professionally, for nearly thirty years and I certainly don't own one. They are far too delicate, both mechanically and electrically for serious use. But you can give the million pounds to a charity - such as the Big Tone lifestyle fund - because having that kind of money would do me no good.


And the door catches on my Golf used to jam or not latch.


Exactly. Production cars have always been cheap junk. Digital or analog, electrical, mechanical or hydraulic: bad enginneering will always be with us.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Can I assume you are using PIC as a generic term for embedded microprocessors ?

It's just that I struggle to take some of the statements seriously when I read them, you'll be telling me that your electric windows are controlled by a Basic STAMP next

Yes ed, I am. (Don't know if that was for dcb)

I have owned many old cars and I know they had their problems, but not from new as these modern ones do.

Test drive an Octavia if you don't believe me. It's got another problem I didn't mention. I got back to work and someone said I left the windows open. Turns out its happened to others and for some reason it randomly just does it.

I wonder if electric hand brakes have a 100% failsafe? I hope so.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

I used to have a 1996 passat that the sunroof opened and closed by itself as you were driving along, half the electric windows didn't work or worked intermitently. I've got a 1996 Omega that has the ABS light showing once a month, the engine management light can come on five times a day or not for a fortnight....modern junk....lol

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Which begs the question why haven't things have moved on since then? Let's compromise and say they are just as bad today then.

Cars across the board are recalled, I don't remember that happening before all this hi-tech anything like it does today. I say again, don't real people thoroughly test drive them before using us as guinea pigs.

I take on board what ed, or was it Mole, said ages ago that manufacturers are trying to keep up with ever more demands. Lower emissions, more economical etc. But the irritating changes aren't for that reason, It's because its cheap junk. I guess if that's what we are prepared to put up with then we get what we deserve; unless you can afford a Merc.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

And even that is no guarantee!

Mercs have had Major problems in recent years owing to the adoption of "Enviromentally friendly" paint that washed off in the rain!

And the diesels are horrible, anything over 60,000 miles and you are likly to face major issues. If you are lucky and its only "One" injector an £800 bill might sort it. (for now!) If you are Unlucky. Add a zero! (near enough (No, really. WCS is new head, new injectors and new loom. Plus the rest!))

And they used to be so good!.....

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Hang on a min! I don’t mind cheap and I know how good PICS are. My gripe, which I feel has been misunderstood or maybe I’m putting the case forward badly, is that they have lost the ergonomics and functionality that us humans need.

My example of the boot on an Octavia is a good one I thought. If it’s open you should know it’s open and it should open with ease. I shouldn’t have to guess whether it’s in the open or locked state by turning a key twice in one direction or hurting my wrist because I did what I thought would open it but it didn’t work properly.

There isn’t a single person who has driven it at work that it doesn’t annoy. It’s happened to us all! I don’t mind 'cheap' or PICS but the two should be married to make it a better experience for us. That stupid car system is a retrograde step, not an advancement, and in 2011 I would have expected them to made with the user in mind.

If Hyundai can make indicators, which may well have a PIC but work so that I know it will do what it does, and when I get a boot which both recognises and accommodates my needs and be built to a price, I’ll buy that one.

So it can be done but there are more and more makes and models I drive coming onto the market because they are cheap junk. I put the door mechanism of the Octavia in that category along with many others I can’t remember I have driven with various niggles because they incorporate bad design and are too cheap to be good.

I remember when Datsun flooded the market back in the days of the Sunny or Cherry and 100Y or 120Y. In typical jealous British fashion we, (not me), slagged them off as “Jap crap”. But they were better, cheaper, more reliable and had more extras. Some cars today, like the ones I drive, have lost sight that it should be built around the driver, not the driver tolerates the car.

I’ve lost count of how many different cars I’ve driven and I know there are some very good, cheap, 'built to a price' ones but also some very bad. My criticism is at these bad ones. Can you pop down to my work ed and I’ll give you a demo of it. I’m in no doubt you will see what I mean. I don’t presume to put words in your mouth mate but I think it would go something like this..

Me: “Can you open the boot ed?”
Ed: “You need to unlock it first nob head”
Me: “You need to pull harder mate”.

2nd scenario..

Me: “Can you open the lock please ed, it’s two turns to the right”
Ed: “It feels like I’m stirring a cup of tea. I can’t tell if it’s doing anything”.
Tone: “Tell me about it!”

It’s always a sign of desperation when I make a story up.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

I really don't think you're complaining about a "cheap" "PIC" but what you see as poorly or incorreectly specified.
At the end of the day someone has captured some requirements (however badly) and written a spec (however ill conceived), someone in authority has signed it off as ok and it's been implemented... and signed off on the vehicle.
How do you influence the above process ? Dunno, probably you can't.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there dude.

Back in the early 80’s I knew a man, (a very highly paid man at that, working for Rover), and his job was to test cars.

I remember he used to go to the desserts in North America and all over the place to test it at different temperatures and altitudes. (Lucky sod). His opinion counted for a lot; I think he even had the final word when it came to things he thought were bad. This was from outright disasters like engine failure right down to what I call a niggle. My question is don’t car manufacturers use these people any more or is it that they are just not listened to?

That was an interesting post Mole. I still would prefer the less to go wrong model though. That said, the way I’ve seen some people’s hill start’s, or drivers trying to turn the clutch plates to dust, I think I can see an advantage for some drivers here. Where did I put my humble pie...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Of course they do this kind of testing..... to make sure the systems meet the spec.

Ahem ... there is actually a problem with toothpaste tubes .... normally caused by operator misuse mind ..... some folks squeeze em in the middle, or at least not at the bottom ..... nuff said

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You only need two tools - WD40 and duct tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD40. If it moves and it shouldn't, use duct tape. :0)

WellTone, I guessed you were into leather, latex, rubber and other such things but swinging now???....what an exciting life you lead

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

LOL! Nobody ever "swings by" here - it's that far off the beaten track!

No, feel free! I've noticed it too. An ordinary screw thread which now has a "click" at the end of its travel to provide positive, tactile feedback that the cap has been tightened - in order to further enhance your daily dental hygiene experience! And of course, before that, the top, er, "stopping" did exactly the same thing! What next? Your very own Colgate torque wrench to ensure you tighten the cap sufficiently?! Worse than that, I find (particularly as the tube gets less full, the body of the tube simply doesn't have the stiffness to resist the torque necessary to overcome the "click" - so you then have to try and grab it by the neck - but the cap is the same diameter as the neck, which makes that difficut too)! (see, I can rant too!)

Another of my pet hates are the Castrol oil containers that don't have screw tops. They are virtually impossible to open and close without ripping at least one fingernail off its nail bed. They're also impossible to tilt sideways like a conventional can with a round hole at the top, because of the stupid spout design (so you have to pour from a great height and get oil all over your engine when the can is neary full) AND the bloody spout doesn't even prevent drips anyway! I can't even imagine it being cheaper to produce. It's one of the few innovations that (as far as I can see) offers not one single advantage over what it replaced.

These are the work, more often than not, of so-called "product designers". These are not engineers, they are "product designers - a quite different discipline. They're usually frothy-headed arts graduates who are overly fond of spouting the mantra "form follows function" at you - and then doing the precise opposite! (\victormeldrewmode\: off)


Yes, but we have to be wary of going too far the other way as well. I'm always reminded of the Henry Ford quote when he said somethign like "...if I'd listened to what my customers told me they wanted, most of them would have just said they wanted a faster horse!". And he's quite right, of course. When we're younger, we embrace new technology and are often susceptible to adopting it simply because it's new, without critically evaluating the benefit. As we get older, we question a bit more. As we get older still, we go too far the otehr way and become resistant to all change - good or bad. There are plenty of innovations that were not welcomed at first, because they required users to acquire new skills. Once mastered, however, the benefits became apparent. Predictive texting on mobiles springs to mind. When phones like that first stared appearing, I thought it was all really far too much trouble and couldn't understand why anybody would want to. Now I can't imagine how laborious texting used to be without it!